Archive talk:A/W Backbreaker Sin

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Skill Order?

Why not falling spider before falling lotus? You will get minimal energy back if your first energy skill gives you all that back and more, would be better if falling spider was first. Only advantage I see in lotus being first is because you want poison to last for longer after the spike? I don't know, imo spider should be first. Justin6 23:00, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

Poison is needed to cover DW from Twisting. ~ ĐONT*SYSOP 00:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Target should blow up before they can remove DW if ur not a scrub at BB.   ツ cedave</♦)

Falling Lotus is also better first if you're low on energy (e-denial from E-Sure, etc.) and there's a decent chance that someone other than your target may have condition removal. It really isn't a big deal, though. ــмıкεнaшк 07:10, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Chances are that other person probably has Draw Conditions, RC, or Mending Touch, seeing as those skills are meta. And if I'm remembering right, I'm pretty sure all of those remove 2+ conditions. ups, guess your cover condition ain't doin' shit.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 12:29, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Archived

91 kb is a bit big. undo or change the archive template if you like. I just noticed this page was a little oversized.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 12:42, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Optimal hammer

Req8 vampiric hammer of fortitude, +15/-5 energy. Unfortunately my req8 hammer is +15%>50%, but it does ok. Dionyssios 07:29, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

If you have 9 Hammer Mastery, there's not point for a req8 Hammer, and 15^50 would probably be better. -- Guild of Deals 07:37, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

12-10-8 atts -- Armond Warblade 09:37, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

How would a 15/-5 be worse than a 15^50? You're guaranteed the extra damage, and it's not like you really need energy while you've got the hammer out.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 11:28, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

Mind Wrack sez hai. -- Armond Warblade 00:33, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Uhhhhh, what? When did bad mesmer skills mean anything to anyone? -Auron 00:37, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

^----ﮎHædõ๘یíɳ 00:46, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Successful troll is successful. -- Armond Warblade 00:51, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

I really do not understand why 10 hammer mastery is needed for one hit....Life Guardian 01:16, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

It's more that you don't gain anything for 10 critical strikes. The breakpoint is 9 then 13, so 8+1 hits it and since you have absolutely no chance of hitting 13, you might as well do more damage for that one hit on the hammer, because the extra points in crit strikes do absolutely nothing. -Auron 01:19, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

You do get more damage from TF ;o but the extra damage from BB is better. --Frosty 02:54, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Plus, if you're like me and 3x knocklock a bastard, your hammer is gettin' a lot of use. Also, if you're like me and forget to put your hammer away after you're done spiking. ups I'm brave.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 03:54, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

tl;dr: Why Falling Spider comes before Falling Lotus

if(metaconditionremoval >= 2){print "Falling Spider wins"}
else if(metaconditionremoval < 2){print "Falling Lotus wins"}
For those of you not programming savvy, think up the meta condition removals, and then tell me if it's going to matter whether or not you cover DW.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 14:45, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

yes but this is primarily a HB build, and in HB Mend Ailment is meta and thus Falling Spider is better, this is used more in HB then any other area so the version for that area should be stored. --Frosty 14:47, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Mend Ailment is meta? ups, i seem to notice a lot of mending touch. Also, this is used in TA, HA, and RA regularly, too. Mebbe it needs to be split?   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 14:49, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Well for hero monks atleast, maybe human monks not so much. --Frosty 14:50, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Well, mebbe. I tend to run MTouch on my heroes, too. Either way, Build:Team_-_HB_Backbreaker_Team and Build:Team_-_HA_Backbreaker both use Spider first. And the first one's the HB BB team. :P   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 14:51, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Lotus is better first, in all arenas pretty much. Rawrawr Dinosaur 14:55, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Remind me again, does bleeding cover deep wound on TF? And the only real advantage of running Falling First is the little bit of damage from poison during the spike. --Frosty 14:56, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

DW is over bleeding, so poison covers Rawrawr Dinosaur 14:57, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

ups, check ur meta condition removal skills again, yeye?   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 19:46, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Also, if you arent terrible at the bar you can just choose which one you wanna use first instead of mindless mashing of 123456. Rawrawr Dinosaur 15:04, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Error: Missing operand ';' :P Byakko 20:39, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Nerf

Why not just raise hammer mastery to 12 and lower critical to 3?--ツThe Gates Assassin 18:53, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Some anon archived it. Fixed.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 18:57, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

You can still do it with 3 second KD

so 12-9-9 is still viable. Saint 19:16, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

too risky if the monk uses shield bash midway during your spike. ☆Imbagon♥McSteve☆(LVPoW) _{Cuz Steve said so...} ツ 19:19, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Would require more skill, BB SINS MAY REQUIRE SKILL!, also anyone notice the subtle FGJ! nerf :> --Frosty 19:19, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Is this still viable after the nerf? omgosh, I dont wanna lose it :( Lol Joan Sandbox 19:23, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Tbh, you shouldn't need more than 8 seconds to build adrenaline with "FGJ!" It just means you get one extra BB after your first spike. ــмıкεнaшк 19:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Worst case, run 12 hammer and 10+1+2 dagger. -35 health won't kill you. --71.229 19:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Mike, it's extra adren for one spike, it's not worth main bar now. --Frosty 19:27, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Really, this is now really hard to pull off and not greatworthy anymore. Two key skills were nerfed. It's time to let go. I is *Jebus*Enter my contests! 19:31, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

dont archive a build just because its a little harder to do. people that dont suck should still have it here. @steve, that is a pointless comment, you could say that about any sin build..Saint 19:34, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

agree with above! it still great and the fact that is hard to pull off is gonna make it greater... not eveyrone would be able to run it now! Joan Sandbox 19:35, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

its not even hard to do, people need to go to nameless and try. just cancel after BB its still just like before, just without the breathing room of not canceling. Saint 19:38, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

It was already hard to use before. Now theres no breathing room at all. I is *Jebus*Enter my contests! 19:40, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Jebus, it was mindless before. I could do it in my sleep. Now I actually have to pay attention. Ohnoes! --71.229 19:42, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

jebus if you think it was hard before...ill stop myself from NPA. before you didnt even have to cancel swap, even bad people could do it with ease. now you have to know how to do it to run it, that shouldnt be an issue, still a "Great" build Saint 19:44, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

What concerns me the most is the time now it takes to build up 10 adren. It is quite bothersome, and LOONG. FGJ! basically reduced that time in half, the time you are most vulnerable, I must say this is quite an issue Joan Sandbox 20:00, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Now that the build uses Dash on the main bar, you might as well take Flurry or Frenzy instead of Flail so you can build adrenaline quicker. ــмıкεнaшк 20:04, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

(ri) user preferance and arena preferance tbh.my point is, just votewipe not archive. Saint 20:06, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

(ec) Just about to say that frenzy + dash > FGJ + Flail anyways... 76.64.121.145 20:07, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

(people who edit others' comments are ftl) 76.64.121.145 20:10, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

i fixed ur indent because i reset it a few lines up and you didnt realize. Saint 20:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

For fuck's sake

The build's still the same, you can take Dash now and just deal with the slower adrenaline, and the 16 points off of Twisting Fangs is probably going to be made up for by the additional Hammer Mastery. There's no need for a wipe or anything.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 20:10, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

why even run 12 fucking hammer mastery when its doable with 3 second KD. same damage as old BB. if you REALLY want that extra second on the ground go for it, but bb is mostly about dmg and long kd, and ppl can sac 1 second of kd for more damage and trying a little harder to swap. Saint 20:22, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

It's definitely worth the negligible loss of damage for an extra second of KD. With that extra second of KD, you can pull off Blades of Steel before they get up. ــмıкεнaшк 20:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

^ I'm not even sure there is a loss of damage. The only loss if e-management, but if you're having e-problems, then you're fucking terrible.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 20:32, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Energy has never been a problem for BB Sins, tbh. You'd get an extra 10 damage on average from your Hammer, too. XD

Now, should we mainbar Frenzy? You've got Dash as a cancel, so you can use that IAS to gain adrenaline faster before your spike (Flail wasn't great for this, but Flurry is) and you won't lose 25% on the base damage of your attacks (like Flurry). ــмıкεнaшк 20:41, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

sins get damage from attack skills not daggers, so flurry works fine with or without dash. Saint 20:48, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

You still lose 30-40 damage on your spike by using Flurry, which is actually quite a bit. ــмıкεнaшк 20:51, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

SOHSOHSOHSOHSOHSOH----ﮎHædõ๘یíɳ 00:59, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

wow, energy is hardddd now :> Brandnew. 04:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm such a fag but Mokele Smash over FGJ yeye, 1 hit and your ready to break a back again. ≈Display talk 06:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Heh, you're better off just auto-attacking with your Daggers, tbh. That 2 extra adrenaline won't really make a difference after you've had to attack with your Hammer, and then switch back to your Daggers, anyway. It would definitely have been worth it before the Mokele Smash rebalance/nerf, though. >.> ــмıкεнaшк 07:07, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

3 adren. Combo - cancel - hammer - Mokele - hit - spike. But yeah, whatever there are better options. ≈Display talk 08:53, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Suggestion

Swap FGJ for Assassin's Remedy to wtfpwn Smoke Powder Defense and Weapon of Shadow. --Luuck 11:51, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Also maybe 11+1+1 Dagger, 12 Hammer, and 6+2 Critical Strikes, so you still hit the breakpoint for crit strikes.- ḆỠḇỰ₤₳₮ỉờ₦ 12:02, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Minus health runes are bad for sins, since you tend to blow up pretty fast anyway. More damage = dead shit = less shit to blow you up. AR wouldn't be terrible, but IMS/IAS is usually more win.   ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 12:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I almost never use major or sup runes, but for hitting the breakpoint and only going from from 620 to 585hp seems like it would be worth it.- ḆỠḇỰ₤₳₮ỉờ₦ 12:12, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

It is. A superior isn't worth it, but a major is fine.--ツThe Gates Assassin 12:41, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

You don't gain a whole lot from the crit strikes anyway.----ﮎHædõ๘یíɳ 13:35, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

12 12 3 is a much better setup, The current one give you -35 health for e-management you do not need, your energy will have regenerated by the time you spike again... And the +damage from the hammer overwhelmes the loss of 6 damage from TF... --Frosty 14:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

What about crit +dmg? Running 12 12 3 seems more awesome to me tho... Swiftslash \\ (contributions *sandbox) 14:15, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

The plus crit damage is not worth loosing the health rly, and loosing out on the extra dagger mastery --Frosty 14:18, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

@ Gates, THE EXTRA 4% CRIT BONUS IS HARDLY WORTH THE 35 HEALTH AND DAGGER DAMAGE REDUCTION. DONT BE BAD. CAPSLOCK IS COOL.----ﮎHædõ๘یíɳ 14:26, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Lol ur bad. The major was to make the break point for critical strikes at 8 so you gain 2 energy instead of 1. Pay attention.--ツThe Gates Assassin 15:02, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

But you don't need that energy... --Frosty 15:03, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

How not...? Rawrawr Dinosaur 15:33, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Go into zealous after spike, I have never had energy problems running 12 12 3 without zealous. --Frosty 15:35, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Ohai! Why even fag about 12 hammer, the spike works with 6 hammer. Only get +2dmg with 12 hammer, crits > +2dmg? Just don't fail at weapon swapping. ≈Display talk 16:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)