Archive talk:A/W HB "Coward!" Assassin

Talk? me needs some help herre :D Igor 06:10, 27 December 2007 (EST)

Will the lack of shadowstep be an issue? I don't play HB much, but I see 'em all using it on obs. -Auron 06:15, 27 December 2007 (EST)

Dont think so, this build sacs shadowstep to gain more pressureability and having one extra KD to exploit heroes is just gr8, u actually spike your target till Ox KD and immidiatly after he gets up use coward to achieve another KD, this way u lock your target in one place till Savannah Heat does its job (if u have brought an SH hero surely ^^). Igor 06:20, 27 December 2007 (EST)

Here u spike every 10-12 and hopefully KD every 2-6 seconds seconds, instead of shadowstepping there evey 25 seconds between which your elite is a waist (though I liek SP too, I liek dam all :D) Igor 06:24, 27 December 2007 (EST)

Blue Links! :D

Me needs blue links instead of red links on teh skills, how do i do it? thx Igor 12:32, 27 December 2007 (EST)

There needs to be the prefix gw:, as in [[gw:Skill here|]], like Coward.--Victoryis2008 12:57, 27 December 2007 (EST)

Thx little dude ^^ Igor 10:35, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Talk Plz

Taaalk :D Igor 05:10, 30 December 2007 (EST)

Bump

BUMP! Igor 17:34, 1 January 2008 (EST)

ILL TEST IT!-- The Gates Assassin 07:03, 2 January 2008 (EST)

thx :) tell me how good u think it is after^^ Igor 08:52, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Worked well. Most monks did run, and after finishing my combo I sometimes had coward still charged so I could just catch them as they were running back (Because they would unflag them). Coward takes some getting use to tho, its a good skill but this is the first time ive used it lol. -- The Gates Assassin 14:53, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Coward is a very nice skill actually, u can also use it to snare foes wile running from the for example, so do u think it is viable? Igor 15:43, 2 January 2008 (EST)

It's good. It lacks the shadow step so you cant shadow step up to enemies on certain maps but overall i think this might do well. Just know that this is going to have to contest with Shadowprison since it uses "It's" combo.-- The Gates Assassin 21:02, 2 January 2008 (EST)

And SP will win... change the combo? Igor 06:16, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Not if you have Coward! charged. :O

Unless you can change the combo to get to your KD before they do, I'd leave it alone. It'll come down to luck and skill in a face-off, and that's fine. --71.229@home 07:07, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Coward actually needs skill to use well, and if u kno how to use it, it becomes an incredibily powerful weapon, so do u guys think its fair enough to be moved into Testing? Igor 12:27, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Yes. Coward was a great skill in HB, trapped the monk a lot and heros on flag routes.-- The Gates Assassin 14:57, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Moving to Testing, dunno if I can do it. :D Igor 04:58, 4 January 2008 (EST)

This is better then the SP Trampling Ox build in HB, the extra knockdown and quick recharging hex snare/IAS is really nice. Worth the trade off in my opinion and a skilled player can hold his own if he knows what he's doing. Selket Shadowdancer 05:33, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Thx Selket :D Igor 12:01, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Good Build, Not saying if its better or worse than SP meta, b/c each has their own advantages. Dual KD is like SoJ Assacaster except that it does an attack chain. Ran this before it was submitted and have found it effective. Seems like Variant to YUAA sin, but still good.-Jak123X 00:07, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Well YAA though is a great skill and a great build has one disadvantage: if your target is Abjashent to something, u get no Crip not weakness which generally makes YAA ineffective in 4v4 or 3v3 takedowns. This build genrally exploits heroes running after being atacked and believe me, they run a lot especially Munks being slammed by a well-timed SH so your dual KD means they will take full dmg from it plus your spike and degen from your Rt/N. --Igor 05:42, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Also, vs. player monks who almost always take mending touch, YAA doesn't work, cos the monk just removes both condi's in one. Coward seems good, however I'd miss a shadowstep, but HB is about snares, especially if you play more of a capping game, this build is perfectly viable imho, but I don't think it's better than SP.--Drowning Pigeon 05:05, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Oh thx dude, dats relieving and yes, i know that its not better than SP, it just has advantages of it's own :D --Igor 15:12, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Sux because its original, and orginality sucks.. sry Chris 21:29, 7 January 2008 (EST)

Your comment looks more like a cheap guru trolling at HB rather than an actual comment, it is just wrong and has no sance because according to it all of the builds on wiki generally suck because they were original before everyone has start using them and must be deleted thus new and the only new builds should be copies of alrdy voted "non original" builds, but as they are copies, they cannot be posted thus all tof the "non original" builds are deleted so there is nothing to copy from and if u start re-posting these builds they wil be original, will suck and will get deleted which does not make any sence at all does it? yes, it does not, which proves your comment to have no sence at all. --Igor 13:53, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Got that backwards, Igor. The original builds are the ones that get WELLed every day. The good ones were usually obsed off of someone else. --71.208.155.233 14:05, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Usually yes. There are of course exceptions. GΩdlﺄεﻯt -_- 14:18, 8 January 2008 (EST)

He still has a point: the builds that are obsed are still original. Not 'original' as in 'his own', but 'original' as in 'innovative, new'. Whoever posted it here is just copying the original build, so the build itself is still original. -StarSeeker | My talk 14:23, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Well, actually I invented the build so in this sence it is original concept which was not copyed from somewere else, but the point is that, no, u cant say that original builds phail, they dont, and this does not either, yes I agree that "Coward!" is used rarely, but it is generally a very nice Pressure and Snare Skill to use and it has worket very well in HB and AB, it also has a powerful combo and generally follows the Meta, the thing is that saying "this phail coz its original" 'n' stuff just is Trolling and has no weight.--Igor 18:02, 8 January 2008 (EST)

And yeah, another thing which is yet again aimed at that Chris guy comment, u see, people, not just me, expect "Cunstructive Criticism" about their build which involves justifying your point of view thus making suggestions on imroving the build no matter how u feel about it and not just saying "It sucks coz bla bla bla" or something, so if u cant comment properly, dont. --Igor 18:12, 8 January 2008 (EST)

"It sucks because blabla" actually is constructive criticism, because you're actually giving argument why it sucks. If you'd just said "It sucks", then it wouldn't be. Constructive criticism is something that a lot of people use on this wiki to conceal the fact that their build is plain bad. It's pretty overrated here. (That was not aimed at you, Igor, or antyone else. Just saying it, no harm intended.) -StarSeeker | My talk 11:46, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Why is nobody talk?-- The Gates Assassin 23:38, 10 January 2008 (EST)

You need six hits in before you can activate "Coward!" in that sense, it is unreliable, making it unwieldy. a bad elite that doesn't provide on-demand knockdown is insta-fail on any bar.Also note that you can only use "coward" after your chain, which is pointless, as the enemy SHOULD be dead. BaineTheBotter 00:03, 11 January 2008 (EST)

The spike is about 480 damage, so no they shouldn't be dead. 6 adrenaline on a sin is NOTHING. You can get that right with twisting fangs which is perfect. If you are constantly auto attacking which builds like this will be, it will be charged most of the time. Heros going to flags will only try to go to those flags, and many of them dont just die from one spike chain. The extra KD after makes them snared even longer. . And at " You can only use after your chain". Auto attacks. Might wanna test before you speak. Also one thing I did was I would auto attack to charge up Coward first, use it when they run, spike(Thus KDing them again), and then coward would be charged again so thats 3 KDs in one chain.-- The Gates Assassin 00:27, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Like I already said, you need 6 hits in first before coward can be used. At the worst of times, where you are blocked or blinded, "Coward!" is useless. "on demand" knockdown means it can activate as long as you meet the energy requirement and condition. Heros do not use "Coward" instantly when the enemy starts moving, they take 3/4 seconds to react, which by then the enemy would have moved a little and cast a spell, which might cause "Coward!" to fail.BaineTheBotter 00:55, 11 January 2008 (EST)

2 things-first, nice build, first actually viable use of "Coward!" I've ever see, seems creative and looks fun. Won't say it will work, because I have done about 3 hero battles ever before becoming bored of them, but looking at how the AI functions, it seems good. Secondly, not casting coward instantly may actually be a good thing. I believe, due to several factors, that the calculation for whether a target is moving or not is based on movement data collected at the end of each second, or a similar interval. I believe this because I have seen enduring toxin refresh on recently stopped, but non-moving targets, and have interrupted skills with bull's strike. I have done slight testing, and have been able to replicate these, so I think this could be the function. Due to being a shout, if used at a good time(likely with a bit of luck for syncing with the movement checking reset), it could either knockdown a kiting foe as usual, or interrupt whatever they briefly stopped to cast, more reliably than bull's, due to the range. Not saying enemies stopping to cast will always, or even often, work to your benefit, just an interesting bit of information I thought may be relevant to this build. Dejh 16:38, 11 January 2008 (EST)

This isn't a hero build...-- The Gates Assassin 17:33, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Baine, plz mind that this is NOT a build for heroes to use, Dejh is the maaan btw, rly, the first person to discover this build's hidden beauty (knockdown a stopping character) so thx very much for ur comment. --Igor 05:16, 12 January 2008 (EST)

Talk plx-- The Gates Assassin 14:33, 15 January 2008 (EST)

"they take 3/4 seconds to react, which by then the enemy would have moved a little and cast a spell, which might cause "Coward!" to fail." This way you can pretty much unfavor any build... --Luuck 05:19, 16 January 2008 (EST)

He had thought this build was meant for heroes, and that they would use it improperly. The build is intended for use by a human, so his comment about the 3/4 second thing was simply a misunderstanding. Dejh 15:51, 16 January 2008 (EST)

Say ty izzy. He buffed Coward-- The Gates Assassin 14:27, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Twisting=Impale, Falling=Res, 4man build. Swiftslash \\ (contributions *sandbox) 14:54, 17 January 2008 (EST)

It's for HB and AB. You don't run a res in either. --Tab Moo 14:55, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Since coward got buffed it may be viable for regular 4man if you change the skills I suggested. Swiftslash \\ (contributions *sandbox) 15:02, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Coward Buff

Makes this a fair bit better imho.--Goldenstar 14:56, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Yep. --- Ressmonkey (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2008 (EST)

great to run now.- {{SUBST:User:Jak123X/Sig}} 20:19, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Yeah! Makes me a happy panda :D --Igor 05:52, 18 January 2008 (EST)

Needs a standard pvp edition. It's good now. - Unexist 08:14, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Variant?

Just to point out, there's no variant section. In AB, you could switch out flurry for dash, due to the buff of "Coward!" Just my 2 gold.IcyFiftyFive 09:11, 24 January 2008 (EST)

no

Umm no shadowstep in HB is loss, and y not got mobiues if you want a pressure oriented build? Mobieus + DB > This himynameisbobbyjoe 21:44, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Moebus > DB with no KD and Snare in HB is a fail my frend and this build does not fail, u just swap Shadow Step for moar spammable KDs which are very deadly against the opposing heroes runnong to shrines. --Igor 18:51, 9 February 2008 (EST)

Variants are wrong! >=]

• Frenzy instead of Flurry and Dash instead of Siphon Speed. <<< Do this, and the chain is ruined + no Siphon is bad imo. --Igor 11:06, 20 February 2008 (EST)

Variants are Inferior! >=]

extremely inferior variants, Leaping mantis is such a conditional thus, unranged skill and Frenzy is just dangerous, imo, remove teh variant. >=] --Igor 09:19, 22 February 2008 (EST)

Then do so! And if someone wants to discuss do it on the talk page. Godbox 09:22, 22 February 2008 (EST)

It's used by top 10, Frenzy is not dangerous in HB when you have Dash. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 12:56, 22 February 2008 (EST)

Currently some high-ranked players run this variant:

In which IMO Frenzy isn't very necessary. Can be switched for Shadow Walk to gain a shadow step. Shall I put this complete bar in Variants? Luuck 05:22, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Flurry. Godbox 07:43, 23 February 2008 (EST)

Who cares about top 100? If something works for them it doesnt mean it works for everyone else, top 100 usually even show off by using less effective and harder to use skills coz they win using skill, not build. Frenzy variant is just hard, and so conditional, and if u rly whant a variant there, just put a mini skill bar, not a confusing "do that, that and then replace that thing with this thing and add some salt" thing imo. --Igor 07:12, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Top 100 means they win. They must be doing something right. If you want to show them up, run your bar instead and make it to top 100; then people will do it your way. -Auron 07:32, 27 February 2008 (EST)

I think u didnt get the point Auron, I say that they win because of skill, they kno what they are doing and are doing it right, they dont win because they have the best build, and If they run something different it may work for them but is unlikely to work for everyone. --Igor 18:03, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Part of skill is taking a bar that doesn't suck. Why would you cripple yourself by running something that is less than the best? -Auron 21:33, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Show off, trust me, some players do that cuz they whant to b original. :P --Igor 09:38, 28 February 2008 (EST)

frenzy is needed as an IAS, good players run it well cos dash is used to cancel, it ganks well and owns heros. Auron you don't know how to HB. Top 100 win due to their individual skill and knowledge of the game, as an ex-top 100 myself I know this as a fact. I can win due to knowing what to do in different situations, not because my build is slightly better than my opponents. Rainbow Ftw

yea.... no, i agree w/ rainbow. Top 100 don't run a certain build u can "trust me" on that as well. Frenzy's fine 'cos u can cancel w/ dash if u need to, if not then just take Flurry. W/ w/e that main build is, siphon is ur only hex: it gets removed b4 u can reach them, thus no cripple and no KD (no chain)... the comment about leaping being so conditional, doesn't rly apply either. That's mainly there for when sum1's running, u Dash + Leaping, etc. from there, when they're not running and it's a skirmish, who cares about cripple ur kd'ing them every 3 seconds w/ "Coward", plus u don't "have to" start chain off w/ leaping every time. you can "coward" + falling spider, etc...AresTheVanquisher 17:33, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Frenzy is only good cuz heroes are too stupid to insta-switch to frenzy sins, and you gotta do it yourself(thus wasting 3 secs, while the target already dash'ed out). Nothing about top100 or whatever, it's more about AI. —ǘŋƐxɩsƫ 08:27, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Changed

Ehm, couldnt resist rly, besides, among all the variants the frenzy thing is the best, I hope u guys like this form of variant section, I do. ;) --Igor 07:23, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Make it the standard. Its way better due to the Siphon Nerf. --Luuck 03:15, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

So I heard

You like Earthquakes... =] Oops wrong page. :/ Selket Shadowdancer 07:24, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Oooo, teh urf shakuuuuuur yesturday was epicmoo! Still shaking. :D Ooops, same :/ --Igor 07:27, 27 February 2008 (EST)

If it really gets nerfed...

If it really gets nerfed then just swap to the major variant, besides, it is now used as often as the SP sin, my idea became meta, so nice. :') --Igor 14:26, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

Nobody uses Siphon Speed with this any more, so I've changed it to what was previously the major variant anyone disagree? Klumpeet.ŧ.¢. 13:15, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

read my above comment, nbody disagreed it seems, so its fine thx for teh halp. :) --Super Igor 13:26, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

Can I change this to what is actually ran with coward? Fishels[슴Mc슴]Mootles 09:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

no ----Super Igor 18:33, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Dammit rawr stoop trolling my signature, im lost in hb. Fishels[슴Mc슴]Mootles 02:16, 12 May 2008 (EDT)