Its a faster spike than the normal DA sin and has a faster recharge thanks to bar compression from Wastrel's Collapse--Tyris 22:33, 11 December 2008 (EST)

"Disables your non-dagger attack skills (10 seconds)." So how to you use SoTS and Impale? Timmy963 05:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Oh Shit i thought it was not assassin skills lol.--Tyris 05:59, 12 December 2008 (EST)
SoTS and Impale aren't attack skills? Brandnew. 06:01, 12 December 2008 (EST)
^Disables your non-dagger attack skills.-- 06:12, 12 December 2008 (EST)
to answer your question, NO. one is a signet, the other is just a skill.--IkimonoI know my ParagonsParagon-icon-small.png 09:08, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Let me explain (like misery did to me), if this was "Disable your non- attack skills, then yes every skill which wasn't an attack would be disabled, but since it says non-Dagger ATTACK skills, it means that only skills such as Hammer Attacks, Scythe attacks, sword, axe, bow etc will be disabled. --Frosty 09:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)

kk, so they made it only usable by assassins. that's good.--IkimonoI know my ParagonsParagon-icon-small.png 09:19, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Doesn't mean you can't cast spells. I'd bet $20 I start seeing KD ele earth spikes in low end pvp. Surprise.pngKarate Jesus 09:26, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Augury of Death Wastrel's Collapse Aftershock Crystal Wave Teinai's Crystals Optional Optional Resurrection Signet

Lol. Spaggage talk 12:50, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Oh wait, Augury + Crystals = bad idea.. Spaggage talk 12:51, 12 December 2008 (EST)

The Optional Slot.

Whats best, im thinking Dancing Daggers atm.--Tyris 12:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)

I'd either take Disrupting to trigger the DW or put Impale before SoTS. --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 12:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Well now that that's fixed, I'm thinking maybe a self preservation skill for optionals. Return, Feigned Neutrality, Restful Breeze or something of the sort. Consensus? --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 13:10, 12 December 2008 (EST)
I think Return to step back would be quite nice. Spaggage talk 13:13, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Keep it open, there's so many skills you can use there from all the other proffessions that could be useful. Selket Shadowdancer 13:23, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Since the gay BSurge Spammers are back: This + Mending Touch + RA = win --J0 12:41, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Minor Crit Rune

Is 10 health really worth an extra 1% crit chance? --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 13:38, 12 December 2008 (EST)

It hits the breakpoint for 2 energy on crits.--Tyris 16:40, 12 December 2008 (EST)
8 is the breakpoint for 2 energy on crits, not 9. Spaggage talk 16:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Major variant

Nightmare weapon. Change all dagger atributes in channeling magic.Sebv2727 16:13, 12 December 2008 (EST)

The spike's got a 20 second recharge, you don't need Critical Strikes at all tbh. RickyRicksawsmface.PNGvantof 00:06, 31 December 2008 (EST)

crit for damage on attack skillsMuffin.jpgPWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 16:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
All two of them? Selket Shadowdancer 17:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
you know, i'm gonna have to agree with this...NmW would be a good change. Your spike would not suffer on energy (20 to 25) and you can have added pressure/healing inbetween your spikes from NmW. You'll also do a lot more damage with Vampiric Assault--IkimonoNeeds more ParagonMonk-Paragon-icon.png 18:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

<pvxbig> [build prof=assas/any dagger=8+1 channeling=10 Deadlyarts=12+1+1 crit=2+1][Wastrel's Collapse][Falling Spider][Vampiric Assault][Impale][Signet Of Toxic Shock][Nightmare Weapon][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

Selket Shadowdancer 19:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Do it the manly way:

<pvxbig> [build prof=assas/ritualist dagger=3 channeling=12 Deadlyarts=12+1+3][Grasping Was Kuurong][Falling Spider][Vampiric Assault][Impale][Signet Of Toxic Shock][Nightmare Weapon][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

Superior fucking deadly arts for more manliness. And take fucking Cruel was Doashen to chain some motherfucking urn dropping. Ben..Squint 19:35, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

if your going to bring twisting fangs drop Impale for Nightmare Wep... double DW makes no sense... I apologize if I'm just being Cpt. Obvious


A/E does it sooooo much better, this really has nothing over it in any way shape or form. Gringo 22:29, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

This build

Is effing terrible. If you want a spike with a 20 second cool down, use this: <pvxbig> [build prof=assas/war dagger=12+1+1 critic=12+1][Mark of Instability][Wastrel's Collapse][Falling Lotus Strike][Tiger Stance][Twisting Fangs][Falling Spider][Blades of Steel][Dash][/build] </pvxbig> This build is 100x better, it is the most powerful sin spike in the game, extremely fast, and performs a knocklock. If you think that Mark of Instability is bad for any reason, I am sorry, but my endless owning of ppl with this build in AB/CM is proof that you are bad. Even when monks are present, I would estimate that Mark of Instability being removed happens about 1% of the time if you arent terrible. The bar on this build page is terrible because the spike is extremely slow, has only one knockdown, and is less powerful. The fact that you can perhaps perform a mini spike with iron palm between main spikes does not at all make up for the fact that the MoI spike is 100x more effective at killing your target. Also, with 14 dagger and 13 crit, even without a crappy mini spike, it performs more damage with dagger auto attacking in the mean time. WTF WTF WTF. I would post this build with its own page but ppl have already tried and the community is to retarded to give it a good rating. --Smity the Smith 10:53, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

"If you think that Mark of Instability is bad for any reason, I am sorry, but my endless owning of ppl with this build in AB/CM is proof that you are bad." I stopped reading there. --Frosty Newsigfrost.jpg 12:05, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Youre bad then cus this build is tagged for ab and cm. --Smity the Smith 12:06, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Smity, my god, where has your intellect gone? --DANDY ^_^ -- 13:53, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Frosty's arguement doesn't make sense to me because this build is tagged only for AB/CM and... RA? The build which I posted is 100x better for AB/CM and I would even say RA. How can you say it's not? --Smity the Smith 13:59, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
The build could be god's finest creation for all I care, but you're saying that it's good based on your own experience in useless formats. That's what he highlighted, it's a common, and very dumb, argument for newbs to say that their build is fine because it works for them. --DANDY ^_^ -- 14:06, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
This build has been discussed with good reasoning on PvX b4, and the good reasoning simply doesn't get passed through. I am left with no other options but to resort to a mad man rant. I know for a fact that any reasoning you could provide that my bar is not superior to the deadly bar is just bad, and as I have said, I could easily debate it with you, but it goes no where, so the only thing I have left to say is I USE THIS BUILD ALL THE TIME AND WTF PWN SHIT LIEK WTF AND THEY ARE ALL LIKE WTF AND THE DEADLY BAR IS ABSOLUTE SHIT COMPARED TO THE MOI BAR AHHH --Smity the Smith 14:16, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
The deadly bar doesn't get its chain ruined by anti-KD (assuming the monk wasn't good/psychic enough to use it before Wastrels) or by blocking after its second attack skill. I probably shouldn't bother arguing with a madman though =\. Tru 14:26, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Thats why you don't instantly go for the Mo/W, instead focus on other squishies as you can usually get a spike passed a monk. If you need to get the Mo/W stop being an autist and learn to watch stances and strike at the right moment... Usually the only players who have blocking stances are monks and wars, so go for different targets. And guess what? This wtf pwns Zb striders and rangers cus it has a hex. You arguement also doesn't hold up because if the deadly arts spiker attempted to spike a monk with more than 50% health it would fail cus guess what, even tho most of the spike is unblockable, it doesnt knocklock the target so they can easily heal or prot. MoI spike is 100x more effective at spiking targets and should only be used by players with half a brain. Plz, no arguements which pertain to bad usuage of the build. --Smity the Smith 14:37, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Smity, nobody even called your build bad before you wrote that "rant", we were just questioning the validity of your arguments. How hilarious is that? --DANDY ^_^ -- 14:50, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

You maybe didnt but this build has been trashed or welled twice in the passed I believe. Anywho, does that mean u like the build and understand its superiority to deadly spiker? --Smity the Smith 14:57, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
It's a completely different type of spike build. --Frosty Newsigfrost.jpg 14:59, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Not rly... its basically the same except the deadly one pussies out half way through and gets all lame and shit. So does this mean we can finally get the MoI vetted on here? The whole reason I posted it on this build's talk page is that it is super superior and to make a point --Smity the Smith 15:03, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
(EC)It doesn't mean one way or the other, really, but Mark of Instability is a very beautiful 10Tango-energy.png, 1/4Tango-activation-darker.png, 20Tango-recharge-darker.png conditional KD Hex Spell that doesn't cause any damage. --DANDY ^_^ -- 15:05, June 15, 2010 (UTC) doesn't cause any damage? It allows for the most powerful spike sin spike in the game and is usually used up b4 it is ever removed. --Smity the Smith 15:07, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
I think Build:A/W Unsuspecting Wastrel is bigger domages than your build (though your build isn't bad). Test on Master of Damage if you really care, I'm at work atm. If that isn't, W/A Backbreaker "sin" should be bigger damage I think. And no, Mark of Instability doesn't directly do any damage. Just sayin'. Tru...hardly working 15:16, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
You are actually trying to say that the warrior does more damage? Lol, and they are terrible in AB and 5 second bleeding and deepwound is bad two when you can make it last 18 seconds. As for Unsuspecting Wastrels, I did this a while ago on guru:

I will add the armor ignoring damage during the spike, list the dps from degen after spike, and list the number of dagger attacks during the spike (which can be taken as a constant, depending on your targets armor, and what not, roughly equal to 20).


Falling lotus = 34 Twisting Fangs = 19*2 + 100 (deep wound) = 132 Falling Spider = 34 Blades of Steel = 60*2 = 120

1 sec of -3 degen = 6 2 seconds of -7 degen = 28

Total: 354 + 14 damage per second after chain from degen

number of hits during chain: 6


(Using pvx's unsuspecting build, the one posted above is bad because it is not a quarter knock)

Unsuspecting Strike: 29+67 = 96 Fox Fangs: 33 Horns of the ox: 10*2 = 20 Falling lotus: 34 Twisting fangs: 19*2+100 = 132

1 second of -3 degen = 6

Total: 321 + 6 damage per second after chain from degen

Number of hits during chain = 7

In the end MoI does more armor ignoring damage, plus has more degen for continued damage after the chain. Unsuspecting has one more hit during the main chain, but that does not bring its damage above MoI. Also, MoI covers deepwound, which if removed instantly takes 100 damage away, while Unsuspecting does not.

--Smity the Smith 15:21, June 15, 2010 (UTC) Other drawback about Unsuspecting wastrels:

  • Horns of the ox is more conditional than MoI as MoI knockdown rarely fails where horns of the ox often fails and requires even more specialized targetting.
  • Proponents of Unsuspecting will argue that it does not require the knockdown from WC for it to work. This is basically a fail safe for bad players as it is easy to get the kd during aftercast delay.
  • They will also say that it does more pressure between spikes. The fact is, althought it can, using unsuspecting to fuel a mini attack chain is devistating to energy and will severally hamper your ability to soon do a full spike.
  • Unsuspecting is easier to catch damagewise as it does alot of damage up front with unsuspecting strike, where the MoI build does the majority of its damage in the last two seconds of the spike. Although MoI is a hex, there are many hexes and monks cannot and often do not instantly remove hexes and they will have little way of knowing that the purple hex icon on their ally indicates a soon coming sin spike.

--Smity the Smith 15:54, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Massive and messy wall of text, I felt tempted to revert the first post, but my god, then you did it again. Please format it a bit and shorten it to make sure you're not repeating any arguments over. * is a good way to keep it clear looking. You're also never supposed to use ---- on a talk. --DANDY ^_^ -- 16:07, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
cool story bro. --Frosty Newsigfrost.jpg 16:10, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Tru made the claim unsuspecting does more damage so to lay that to rest I broke down each build damage, then listed some furthur arguements, not rly a huge wall of unformatted text, just take the time to read plz and respond. --Smity the Smith 16:12, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
It's 100% reliant on a hex, and in the end of the day although it will work from time to time, it is not 100%, whereas the WC bar simply does not rely on anything and can do more or less the same damage chain with more reliability and a bit more pressure in between with some unsuspecting fox fangs action (which won't "destroy" your energy) and can draw prots from when you actually spike. --Frosty Newsigfrost.jpg 16:19, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Again, the big arguement is always against MoI, but if you would take the time to get good with the build you would see that your theory crafts don't hold true and it is an incrediably powerful and reliable spike. It's not more or less the same damage as unsuspecting, it is significantly better especially since its a spike which is supposed to kill, the extra damage it does during the spike and afterwards from degen makes it much more effective at getting kills off. --Smity the Smith 16:24, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Hrm, I'm gonna stick with my guns and say you're wrong. --Frosty Newsigfrost.jpg 16:27, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Also, unsuspecting is not unconditional, please see horns of the ox. Getting back to the original arguement, MoI WC is far superior to this deadly WC spike. The deadly wc spike has almost nothing to offer over it. In terms of unsuspecting, u trade damage for easier usage and semi ability to pressure between spikes. --Smity the Smith 16:31, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
Unsuspecting has a conditional effect, but it is unconditional in that it will hit regardless of anything besides block/blind/blurred. Also, this deadly spike actually has big domages. 30+38*2+95+100(DW)+47+94=442+4*2*5 seconds=482+3 attack hits. Tru...hardly working 16:40, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
It has less damage than MoI Wc, is much slower, and allows the target plenty of time to heal, prot, disrupt you, and damage you. Also, if you are not bad, and for some strange reason you fear that you cannot get a MoI spike off, just use WC->tigers stance->falling spider->falling lotus->twisting fangs. Also, the entire unsuspecting chain will not hit if there is an adjacent foe, you can only get 3 skills off and not really be all that effective. If you are attempting to spike a target who is using an anti kd skill then you are bad anyways. As I said before, if you must, wait for stances to expire and strike at right time. Unsuspecting = WC for lazy/less skilled players. --Smity the Smith 16:46, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
You showed me math as to how MoI WC has more damage than Unsuspecting WC. So you ignore my math for deadly SC vs MoI WC? Kk. As for Horns being conditional, if you decide to spike a foe who has a target adjacent to him, you can go WC>Falling>TF>Unsuspecting>Fox>Horns and still get a full chain off. It's not as optimal (no knocklock), but it's still a full chain, just like your chain done without MoI. Relying on the monk to be bad at using bstance/dolyak (i.e. not timing it so that it activates while you're using Horns) is pretty bad logic too. If you spike another target, a simple Guardian hurts your chain more than it hurts the Unsuspecting WC. Blocking either of your Falling's (or both of your first dual's hits) ruins your chain. Unsuspecting only has one Falling to be blocked (or both of Horns' hits). Unsuspecting = WC for people who like versatility and don't suck at e-manage on a sin. Tru...hardly working 17:00, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

(recent indent) I didn't ignore your math, indeed the deadly spike is powerful, however it is extremely easy to defend against as it is slow and gives the target plenty of time to react. Also, monks dont use dolyak and bonettis in ab/cm, and although I don't recommend MoI for RA, the deadly spike really shouldnt be used in RA either. You keep naming all these counters to the spike but the fact is you can almost always get a spike off perfectly fine if you are good at choosing targets. It's all how you use it, and if you use it wisely it is the most powerful sin spike in the game and extremely effective, and this is not theory craft at all... I'll admit the unsuspecting build is on par with the MoI bar, but clearly MoI is light years above the deadly chain. Damn you guys probably won't believe how effective it is until I post a fricken video --Smity the Smith 17:09, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

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