Talk: Rt/D Great Dwarf Spirit

to KJ

I like it because in PvE, you shouldn't limited to using the most common/best/overused build like in pvP (unless you're crow/smurf in which case you hold halls with 5bb sins). In PvE you should be able to have the option to run a different build that works, and this does big damages (therefore it works, pve vs big damages is a reaaaal no brainer), and it's different therefore frostels le likes this build. Also, could have let me respond... Frosty the Admin 15:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to keep you from responding. And I understand why you like it, but my argument is that it's not as useful for the majority of GW players (which is what we're for, right?). There's nothing wrong with being creative in PvE, but I thought that's what namespaces are for.

15:13, 4 June 2009

There's a difference between creativity that sucks, and creativity that works. For the former, see the builds in my namespace (well, Infidel's). --Slurry. 15:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

There are a lot of creative things that work, but no one's going to bother running them because other things work better. You all sound like a bunch of anti-PvX baddies in RA. PvE is about creativity as much as PvP is. Sure, we can all say lolpve, but only the the extent that we can say lolpvp. If not, I'm gonna flood the PvE section with every functional build I've ever run, seen run, or heard of someone running, tbh, because hey - they all work and deal lots of damage. ··· Danny Does Drugs 15:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, in response to the Rt/D's with the dedicated supporter - yeah, let's make more physical-damage based teams that use a GDW/SoH buffer, regardless of the fact that we're putting enchantment-based low AL's in the frontline in preference to builds that can deal damage and maintain an armor value over 100. Rt/D has never worked nearly as well as other things for the same reason that Rt/any has never worked as a damage dealer in PvE - other things just work better. They make great support roles, which - surprise, surprise - is what rits were designed for. Sure, they've suffered some shitty nerfs, but in that case, don't play a fucking rit if you don't like it. Play an Imbagon or monk and be a few dozen times more useful. ··· Danny Does Drugs 15:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

And what team doesn't run an imbagon? Yay armors. --Slurry. 15:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Many teams don't. You probably haven't been playing since you don't know about cryway ripping through every "elite" missions without imbagons.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I do know that cryway is way overpowered, but I also know that any non-cryway team takes an imbagon, or a DSlash SY spammer. Edit: Every team that I'm in has an imbagon or a DSlash SY spammer.* --Slurry. 15:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Unrelated, but I rarely see any of those and still vanquish/clear missions fine.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

AScan

Means permanent sitting in Zealous set. You don't have the emanagement for it like critscythe etc. uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

And sitting in zealous is bad in pve?

Frosty the Admin 15:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes it is, less pew pew pew.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Go play the build, you'll see that sitting in Zealous works. When attack skills cost 2 energy (Zealous Sweep gaining 7 energy), Zealous says, "Who the fuck cares?" --Slurry. 15:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a rit, that's why I am asking you to test it to be sure. Aren't you the one who came out with the build? You must have one right?

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I do have one, and, SURPRISE, the bar that it currently has it this one! SHOCKER! --Slurry. 15:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I have a rit too. I'll run the build when I get home and do some math. Which build should I run? This one or Frosty's? Now, I seriously need to leave. Ugh.

15:25, 4 June 2009

Are you seriously expecting me to know that you tested ascan already? If you think I am some omnipotent all-knowing being, please seek help. I don't know what your friends/family/teachers told you, but humans generally don't have mysterious psychic powers to mind read.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, if someone obviously knows what the fuck they're talking about, I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about from experience. Deductive reasoning ftw. --Slurry. 15:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

MS/DB has energy issues with ascan, apparently it's beyond your level of understanding that I am requesting you to try the build with ascan inside.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you do a simple math problem for me? What's 5*2? --Slurry. 15:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I just realized what was wrong with your argument. GDW lasts at least 20 seconds and more with spawning power, so you don't need to spam it on recharge. You, however, do with ascan since you should blow up mobs within 6 seconds, if not less.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Except AScan has a 5 second recharge. You've just said yourself that you blow up mobs in 6 seconds or less; therefore you have just invalidated your argument that using AScan presents energy issues. 2 casts of AScan is 10 energy; 1 cast of GDW is 10 energy. There is no energy difference. --Slurry. 15:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Ascan is single target, you still have to recast it on the next foe. Also, scythes hit 3 at a time, assuming an average mob consists of eight you have to cast it more than just 2 times, or it defeats the whole purpose of running ascan.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand, but reread what you wrote: You said that this will/should "blow up mobs within 6 seconds, if not less." Going by that, 2 casts of AScan is max. If I could cast it on every enemy, then there would be energy issues. But at 2 casts of 5 energy each, there aren't any. --Slurry. 16:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to point out that AScan has a recharge of 5 seconds. --Slurry. 16:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to "monster" when I state "mobs". Bad habit which I apologize for.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Except this blows up mobs in under 10 seconds. You can only cast AScan on two monsters per fight. In the event that you have to cast it a third time, you still have a 20 energy cushion, so you can cast it up to 4 times in a fight and still have a little bit of energy left over. I've had to cast GDW twice and it was fine, energy-wise (stupid hero casted SW over it >_>). --Slurry. 16:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

And where, pray tell, did you clear mobs in under 10 seconds? I would love to give a test myself when I set up my critscythe.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

See the "@Danny" section. --Slurry. 16:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

@Pika/@KJ

@Pika: Zealous Sweep+Zealous scythe=7 net energy gain. It's enough for Asuran Scan, seeing as you'd only be able to cast it twice before the enemies are dead.
@KJ: Nice job archiving while I was responding. --Slurry. 15:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

QQ more. We should have archived after the last argument over stupid grammar made it over 60kb.

15:15, 4 June 2009

Go read my response. --Slurry. 15:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I will later, miss attention whore. I'm heading to work.

15:16, 4 June 2009

Disagree. You have to recast it very often, best is to do some actual testing in HM or something.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Asuran Scan be casted every 5 seconds at the minimum. Since obviously my findings aren't accurate, how large are mobs in HM? I'd bargain 6-8 usually. --Slurry. 15:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

You have other skills that you have to maintain and spam on a regular basis. Theorycrafts don't really translate to reality as well as you think they do; please test it, if possible. For now I will agf or something until the results come back.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going you have some type of mental disability. In case you've missed the entire previous archive, let me reiterate. I use this on a regular basis, both NM and HM. Jai uses this. It isn't theorycraft if someone uses it and knows what the fuck their talking about. It's quite obvious that you don't know what you're talking about because you've never even used the build. --Slurry. 15:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Is it so hard to at least confirm that ascan doesn't get in the way of energy? Or you just too arrogant and stuck up to even double check?

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Jai also uses a Locust Fury sin with SY!, which, quite frankly, does more damage and is generally more useful than this build. Also, Asuran scan WILL cause energy issues - it causes energy issues for MS/DB with zealous daggers and 13+ in crit strikes WITH Critical Eye. ··· Danny Does Drugs 15:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll be honest: I don't regularly use Asuran Scan when I run this. However, I can confirm that it will work perfectly fine, since you kill any and every mob in under 10 seconds. 10 seconds=2 AScan casts max. If you play correctly, you have about 20 energy left over after each fight. Dropping GDW for AScan (I'm assuming?) won't change anything--GDW is 10 energy, AScan is 5 energy per cast, and at 2 casts it's 10 energy. There is no difference in energy. --Slurry. 15:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Just take it that I was naive enough to actually ask you nicely to test it. /care

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Look, I don't need to retest something that I have physical proof of (my experience of using it in the game), as well as deductive proof (5*2=10, 10=10). --Slurry. 15:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Didn't I tell you to get over it? I was naive to expect anything out of a person who is so full of himself, aka my fault.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

And I was reinforcing that I don't need to retest it to please you. But in any case, if I did retest it, you still wouldn't believe me. Isn't that right? --Slurry. 15:42, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I said you didn't have to test it anymore, apparently you have issues understanding english, because you keep "reinforcing" about doing something which I already told you to leave it.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

English isn't my first language, so I can easily use that excuse. And in case you're wondering, I learned Spanish first, and then learned English a few years later. --Slurry. 15:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Red Herrings are gud, i hurd?

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 15:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

So, out of curiosity, if you're using scan, you're not using attack skills? makes a whole lot of fucking sense imo. ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Why exactly would you not use attack skills if you use Scan? I don't even think someone with half a brain would be that stupid. --Slurry. 16:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I wish

We could get people to care this much about builds that actually mattered. Misery Says Moo 15:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite

Any complaints now? --Slurry. 15:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Also--are we still going with the any-people-involved-can't-vote? Or are we all going to vote this? --Slurry. 15:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

There was never a rule against voting on builds you were involved in. C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?

15:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I know, but KJ had proposed a revote and offered that everyone involved in the drama wouldn't vote on the build; we'd let people that had nothing to do with this vote. --Slurry. 15:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Probably because we don't have any BMs. Just vote like good boys and girls and it should be fine. No 5-5s or 0-0s etc. C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?

15:55, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

In archive 2, someone (Pika maybe?) said this is(well, it was about the previous setup, so was) a 3-2-x. Would you say removing something like a 1-1-x is justifiable? --Slurry. 15:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Assuming this build can maintain energy with ascan, which I AGF, it's probably worth a >4.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

From using it, I know it's a 5-4-x, but just so it doesn't seem like I'm rating it high since I authored the original version, I'll vote a 4-4-x. Fair? --Slurry. 16:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

In answer to your previous question, a 1-1-x vote would fall under the "etc" i mentioned.C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?

16:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

This build can't maintain Asuran Scan tbh. Go try running it on anything that isn't Locust's Fury with a 33% IAS and try spamming attack skills. Even with a Zealous, you're energy is fucked if you're killing things half as fast as this looks like it could. ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

@Panic: I thought so, I just wanted it to be clear.

@Danny: Pika agrees that mobs blow up in under 10 seconds. AScan has a recharge of 5 seconds. 10/5=2 casts of AScan max. AScan costs 5 energy. 2*5=10 energy max from AScan. This worked perfectly fine running GDW (10 energy), so there is no difference when using AScan. --Slurry. 16:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Infidel le Mathmatician!

Frosty the Admin 16:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I was curious as to where you blew up mobs under 10 seconds, and with what kind of party configuration.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

If this can deal upwards of 2000 damage in 10 seconds, I'll be damn impressed. You'd need to be doing over 300 damage EACH swing, which isn't happening without AScan. ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I got 2000 from assuming an HM mob has only 500 health, and assuming there are only 4 mobs. Of course, my logic is slightly flawed, in assuming one SS Scythe, but with more this just becomes any old physicalway. ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The rewrite is a dupe of another of Slurry's builds: Build:Team_-_Great_Dwarf_Strength ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe you mean one of PvX's builds? There is no such thing as owning a build on here. Regardless, it isn't an exact dupe: different profession, different elite, different buffer, and a different skill. I'm not sure if that qualifies for a dupe. --Slurry. 16:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It's the same concept, but better. And the buffer is replaceable/modifiable, as mentioned on the page. This is a dupe. ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying this concept is better? Or the already-vetted concept is better? --Slurry. 16:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

@Danny

This does do an upwards of over 300 damage each swing, it's called r12 Kurz and r10 Deld.
Also, Pika, my usual team is 2 of these, a buffer, an imbagon, and Discordway. Most mobs are dead in 10 seconds or less--the exceptions are the obvious things: great destroyer, varesh, abaddon, shiro, etc. --Slurry. 16:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

So basically, with 4 humans, I can ball up, set up all my enchantments, and reliably clear almost any mob under 10 seconds?

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Who said ball up? --Slurry. 16:24, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I was assuming you ball up mobs to make sure their physicals are beside ranged to pew pew pew, but apparently I was mistaken, pardon me.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

My fault, I misread. I thought you mean ball up the team (as in, the imbagon, buffer, and 3 necro heroes). The idea is to ball up mobs, yes. Once you get them balled up, spam attack skills and you win, as long as the heroes use discord. --Slurry. 16:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Could you name me a suitable area which I can test/practice this build on? I am planning to make a rit just to try this out.

uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 16:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Shards of Orr works best. However, any area works fine. When I say any, I mean any that doesn't include things I've mentioned before (great destroyer, shiro, abaddon, etc). --Slurry. 16:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Build:Team_-_Great_Dwarf_Scythes

Can we call this fucking settled? ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

...I'll be honest, I never even thought of that. A merge like so is fine. I guess move it to testing and we can all vote on it. --Slurry. 16:42, 4 June 2009 (UTC)