someone write it up, gogogo.--TahiriVeila 18:01, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

And why can't you? Karate KJ for sig Jesus 18:03, 26 February 2010
leaving to go skiing for the weekend in 10 mins.--TahiriVeila 18:05, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

now that youre back from your ski trip, lets get this fantastic and meta build vetted. Gringo 05:28, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'll write it up when I wake up tomorrow if it is not already. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] Vincels 05:36, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
K, done. Although I probably have an attribute or two wrong. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] Vincels 18:38, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
I'll write up usages later tonight and probably mainbar an MoI ele instead of the second mind shock--TahiriVeila 20:21, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

no interrupts, no snares, very few kd's/disruption, can't really split defensively at all (or offensively unless you sit paras in lord room, for that youd have to kill most npcs), and without any snares you can't really collapse at all. also i doubt this will kill with people on lightning shields, and the only spike skills the eles have are exhaustion meaning if you spike more then every 30s the exhaustion will add up pretty quickly. the only defense in the build is largely reliant upon the attunements (he wont be managing his 15e blind without attune up). i really dont see the point of the build Oo Gringo 20:26, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm dropping one mind shock for a an MoI, as that's what we run more often than not. Mind shock eles are bad, that's why they've been a spike staple for over a year now. You're the best. Counter-split with mind shock ele (one can solo a ranger under right conditions). Also: no one plays ladder anymore. You run this on 8v8 maps like imperial.--TahiriVeila 03:40, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
when did i say mind shock was bad? most have two spike skills, so they dont have to exhaust themselves out genius. and what are you smoking "mind shock can solo a ranger", where the fuck do you get that. this is just our Dual Paragon build with the ranger out for a snare ele. and the people that come to pvx do ladder still genius, why would top 50 players get their builds off here? Gringo 05:04, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot that we don't carry bars build for AT play and that you can't spike with shell shock or shock arrow. You're right about the similarity to the current dual paragon build, but I feel that the axe war, mind shock, & MoI differ enough from the hammer, ranger, and bsurge/MB to warrant a seperate page. If others disagree I'll be happy to let this page be deleted and variants listed on the other dual paragon page.--TahiriVeila 05:09, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
alright you go on spiking with your mighty shock arrow, you've always got GoLE to back up your mighty pool of energy. owait. dont say dumb things. and you just went from "no one ladders" to "oh we can have ladder and at bars" pretty fast. think before you type twat. and i still want to know how the fuck a mind shock can solo a r/mo. ill read your awesome response when i wake up tomorrow. Gringo 05:13, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
also: LOLREJUVENATION. Gringo 05:14, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
Rejuv is pretty strong party healing (especially countering a split when you only have 2-3 players in range). Change to Resil means you can't to spam it as often as you could before and glyph isn't necessary. It's a perfectly viable skill if you know how to flag =\ Shell shock + 25% armor pen does a number on a ranger, if a flagger can drop a shackles on him you can often do enough damage to push a kill or at least force him to get the hell out. Why are you trying to get me angry? It's really not working...I'm not interested in getting into screaming matches with you anymore. I'm going to write up my article. If you bitch enough I'm sure you can get it trashed. If you feel you need to do that, go for it.--TahiriVeila 05:19, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
rejuv will last for like 5 seconds with the number of people in earshot. and how is "mind shock can beat a ranger 1v1" the same if there is a rit there to help the mind shock. thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. and sup mend touch on cracked armor. if you want to say dumb things then respond "i dont want to get into screaming matches" then thats fine, just consider not saying dumb things in the first place. and gole is an amazing fucking skill, only a dumb vr player would bring rejuvenation. Gringo 16:35, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
Obs finals + half a dozen matches in the mAT. see rejuv. kthx--TahiriVeila 16:49, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
People only ran rejuv with Rit Lord........ --Frosty Frostcharge 16:56, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
Wat? I thought yumy ran it with shackles in the final, or was that a Rt/A? I can';t remember. If i'm being a nobr change it plox--TahiriVeila 18:09, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
who'd have thunk it. Gringo 18:50, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
You were! yumy ran that rit lord runner in the final, rejuv is only good with it because by the time it has died it will be recharged again, + you get high spawning power high resto for it so it becomes pretty decent, a bit like old recup. --Frosty Frostcharge 18:52, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Fixed bars. Will write up proper usages and fix equipments tomorrow. Might aqs well move into testing--TahiriVeila 03:52, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


1 warrior means any somewhat intelligent monk just stalks the warrior with guardian; also: blind on the warrior, blurred on the warrior, snares on the warrior, lineback warrior... he isn't going to be able to do shit. And the paragons are unsplittable squishy pieces of shit with -20 armor + cracked armor on them. 01:23, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

you must not be familiar with vR. Gringo 03:20, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
Did you mis the mindshock knocking prots on every spike? Learn to fake a spike plox, you have rush for a reason. Also, wot're paragons calling caster spikes? Both paragons + ele + shell shock + a mind shock on prot is enough to kill =\ --TahiriVeila 18:03, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
2 paras plus one water plus shell shock won't do 600 damage, sorry to break it to you. and using mind shock ONLY like you would use gale completely defeats the point of the 70+ damage. either you dont understand how to run the build, or you are just bad at explaining it. Gringo 18:07, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
Of course you don't don't ONLY use mind shock as gale, my point was that if you need to you can have the prot knocked on every spike. And apparently you haven't played the build, b/c caster spikes (particularly those on DP'd targets or casters on 40/40s, wot's field awareness m8?) are plenty of damage to kill, when you've got shell shocks at 17, anthem of envy, shard storm and followups with shock arrow/mindshocks/freezing you're pumping BIG damage.--TahiriVeila 18:13, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, no point in arguing with you further since you're obviously convinced it doesn't work despite obs mode and anecdotal evidence. So just vote whatever you want and stfu.--TahiriVeila 18:14, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
you keep saying things, and then going back and changing them. "Did you mis the mindshock knocking prots on every spike?". then after you change it you always say "oh i'll stop arguing". and whats obs mode got to do with it? i saw vr run this for one match, and i've never seen it since. idc who the fuck runs a build, i care if it works (unlike you, who is so brainless the only way you vote on builds is if your friends run them). Gringo 18:17, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
and personal anecdotes from people who bsurge for one single guild once a month mean nothing btw. Gringo 18:19, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

This has legitimate potential to score kills and has enough defense to survive long enough to score those kills. If you think otherwise you're stupid; this build does what it's designed to do. JonasGWWAvatar Jonas 22:23, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Somebody who actually gets what a spike build is supposed to do wat.--TahiriVeila 22:38, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
But I think that Martyr > Empathic removal, and Strip enchantment > glyph of elemental power JonasGWWAvatar Jonas 00:23, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
a person who just said that ^ is the only person supporting you jake. Gringo 00:28, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
ERemoval counters Seeping, if you run Strip + Mind Shock it'll be zz on spikes. --Chaos? -- 00:25, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
We occasionally run maryr, we had empathic more when bsurge was more common though. With all the blood mesmers around we use martyr more now though, we should probably variant it. It's great for pulling bleeding + poison off half a team. Strip is nice but glyph makes you PUMP--TahiriVeila 01:57, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm so confused... but why exactly does the Infuse Monk have no attribute investment in Tactics? A one second Disciplined Stance isn't gonna do jack shit.

bar got made wrong. Not that big a deal, fixing it now--TahiriVeila 18:48, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
I've been running this with a Bsurge instead of a MS, it is still quite strong. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] Vincels 17:25, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

lack of a ranger

is bad...crip shot is too overpowered to not abuse, and frankly, ur build totally lacks movement control in the sense than you can only push flaggers as a team, cannot collapse anything DECENT to take care of their ranger if he pushes, ur entire build is lacking from the exclusion of a ranger. one split and your only option becomes to collapse defensive characters such as your runner and prot, if they split a war and a ranger, a mind shock might be viable, but against all other things, is there even a point to the other characters in relation to how a crip shot would be able to handle it? i was too lazy to log in but this is Vhang. 18:52, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, you lose because there's no ranger. How bad are you at this game?--TahiriVeila 03:04, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
calling someone bad without backing it up whatsoever makes you look like an ass. if you want to defend yourself, give reasons. otherwise, why the hell post at all. he gave valid points, so refute him properly. Gringo 03:19, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
He refuted his own points. He says the lack of a cripshot inhibits your ability to counter split and then goes on to say splitting back a mind shock deals with splits just fine. You shouldn't have any problems holding for boosts with an MoI and mind shock. I dunno why he bothers posting if he's not going to realize this build is about sitting at stand. If they split a ranger and war, you split back your flagger and pump at stand where they don't have the utility to shut down spikes. If they sit at stand you spike them out anyway. He talks like pushing flaggers as a ewhole team is a BAD thing. His obvious lack of knowledge when it comes to gvg is obvious, so I didn't see much of a reason to refute his dumbass arguments--TahiriVeila 03:46, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
erm youre twisting his words. he said in one scenario (warrior + ranger splitting) you can send back mind shock and it might be viable, how is that the same as "deals with splits just fine"? also, pushing flags with an entire team is bad, it puts your team out of position, and slows a lot of your pressure while your team pushes. shutting down an MoI is much much easier then shutting down a cripshot (hex removal, interrupts), not to say you can't boost, just to say its more difficult. and an moi isn't going to help you boost when every prot in the game has aura on his bar. next you'll be saying "oh rip is there to strip aura!" lmao. Gringo 04:00, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
If a mindshock is effective against a war/ranger(and assumingly flagger if you're sending both) then why wouldn't it be effective against any other split? Pushing flags as a whole team puts you in BETTER positon not worse (how is moving your whole team up offensively a loss of position?). Shutting down an moi is NOT easier than shutting down a cripshot. A cripshot can be shutdown by simply dshotting cripshot. An MoI requires either a powerblock, or multiple interrupts/diversions to shutdown. Dunno how multiple interrupts makes a build easier to shutdown than one that is shut down by a single interrupt. And last i heard cripple is a hell of a lot easier to pull than hexes (wots draw/pnh?). Last i heard aura doesn't have 100% uptime and kinocking monks trying to remove hexes is helpful, or do you want to tell me hammer wars are useless when pushing a flagger too?--TahiriVeila 04:07, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
um ok, you can split back a mind shock + flagger to cover ele splits, hf with that. and if you really think that pushing your entire team forward onto a flagger puts you in a better position, then you are just a silly little boy. and you dont have to interrupt an moi (its one way to shut it down, not the only). empathic/smite hex/veil/cure etc are all easy ways to get a flag through. just veil up makes interrupts very very easy. and are you really saying that you can wait until aura is down to mind shock a runner once? your theorycrafting is spiralling downward lool. a hammer war can single handedly shut an entire character down, you seem to think mind shock can do the same. you also have said "use mind shock on spikes to kill, use mind shock on monks to kd on spikes, use it to kd monks to push flags, use mind shock to kd flaggers to get flags in". you highly overestimate mind shock. comparing a mind shock to a hammer warrior is like comparing a warrior with agonizing chop to a ranger with savage and dshot. all hail vr, breeders of best bsurgers and theorycrafters in game. off to sleep, i enjoy your "mind shock shuts everyone on the other team down" response in the morning. Gringo 04:32, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

"Pushing flags as a whole team puts you in BETTER positon not worse (how is moving your whole team up offensively a loss of position? - TahiriVeila". i lol'd --Rawrawr Dinosaur 19:03, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to bother reading this entire page, but a few things stated in this particular section are inadequate/mediocre/wrong. Since I cba to write in complete sentences, I will use bullets instead:

  • You do not need a Ranger
    • Movement control while useful, is not always necessary. A build designed to collapse, as are most in the current meta, need additional snares so as to kill damage that has split into your base. However, in a build such as this, where you want to have as much damage at stand as possible, you merely send healing back preemptively/get better at containment
  • In near every sense, an MoI is better movement control than a ranger. Excluding the mere fact hexes are more difficult to remove than cripple, an MoI has a much further sphere of influence. He can snare behind walls. He can snare while blind/blurred. He can virtually snare on recharge, since everyone brings guardian and no one brings a dom mesmer (aside from a few euros; most have realized however that it is generally not worth bringing atm unless it is vor lol)
  • Pushing flags on imperial is a joke. Both the ramp and flag-stand can be blocked by a 3-man. Ridiculously easy to do with dual paragons and a decent prot.
  • The main issue I have with this build, is the lack of a solid stand-team. One, you need strip. A good prot will catch a large-majority of your spikes without it. This means the gole mindshock is probably a better choice. Also, I would consider a more defensive flag-runner. While the Rt/E is great for containment purposes, in the event you do need to heal NPC's for an extended duration, a party-heal pumper may be a better option. Entirely up to whomever is flagging.

--Readem 15:59, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to mention, the main difference between a cripshot and an MoI is a ranger's ability to push up without healing. If you have a good prot however, pushing with an MoI will always be far superior (while going under the assumption they can contain decently). If anyone has further inquiry, feel free to pm in-game or something. --Readem 16:04, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

You're forgetting that if without a ranger, Grinch Ranger can't dominate the match. This is a key point you've overlooked and I suggest you hit the books ASAP. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 16:41, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for backing up my points readem, but saint seems to hate you just as much as me so he's going to come back here spouting more idiotic bullshit that doesn't make sense--TahiriVeila 17:53, March 11, 2010 (UTC)

yep, saying pushing an entire team forward for a flagger puts you in worse position is idiotic bullshit, you got me, oh master of vr. Gringo 17:58, March 11, 2010 (UTC)
Master of obs mode you are. I haven't been in with vR in ~2 months. Yes i think they're good players, dunno why you have to make it seem like a bad thing that i played with a top 10 guil;d that consistently makes the top 8 in mATs.--TahiriVeila 06:24, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
The correct answer is probably gilwor, even from a non-troll perspective. Figure out what I'm on to :> --Chaos? -- 08:49, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
naw the correct answer is he was never core and never has played an mat with them, hes not even a vr player and yet prides himself on it. oh and also gilwor. Gringo 17:35, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
Which is why i left 2 months ago...--TahiriVeila 17:36, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Why are people whining about rangers? Its clearly not that kind of build. Like readem said, at the stand rangers are inferior to MoI and its true.I Can Haz Pvp 17:21, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'd assume that its inferior, looking at the skill bars. I havent played it or yet watched it be played :/I Can Haz Pvp 21:59, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Should the mind shock take fomf for second hard res? --Steamy..x


Never surrender is fucking terrible. --Lemming 12:04, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

It's like recuup, wasn't awful This needs to be archived anyway.--TahiriVeila 14:14, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
The one thing it was good at was propping your team up a bit when your runner was really held up. Beyond that, it hit about two people on average with 50% uptime for like 1/6 of the healing of a recup. --Lemming 19:58, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
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