I'd like to be the first to add the new mesmer pressure and kill. Feel free to add and comment. Also, say it here plz for changes in the build. Shadow Form Slayer 06:44, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

did you just look at the buffed skills and went: "zomgzzzzz, i gotta throw everything in a build" or something? Brandnew 07:16, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
More like, finally, let's show anet how funny mesmers are. And yes, I looked, and yes, I of course wanted to be the first to make a new build. Maybe a bit too early, but I was too late with the last one. But no, not throw in randomly. I looked closely. Shadow Form Slayer 07:18, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Does Mind Wrack trigger on other persons mesmer skills too? Because if so, obaby dual dom spikes. Brandnew 07:19, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
I guess so, let me re-check. Shadow Form Slayer 07:20, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
No, only yours. But that is why the E-denial has it. Shadow Form Slayer 07:20, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
If it's a race to put up a random Mesmer build with the updates, I beat you. Seriously, though, it seems to me you lose out taking Panic and a signet 'rupter with neither Migraine, Frustration or Arcane Conundrum, especially after two of those have been buffed. Unnatural Signet's usage has changed, it's not anti-spirit any more. I would also put something quick to recharge and preferably fast-casting on the ESurger, like Wastrel's or Ether Feast, to trigger Mind Wrack more. Widow maker 11:06, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Its on the testing-table right now.Shadow Form Slayer 11:41, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Making some edits. I tested this build. We had baad monks, but we fought a r7-8 team and we killed in no-time. Especially the E-Denial is much fun. Making edits and going again. Shadow Form Slayer 11:52, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Note: It was balanced. Shadow Form Slayer 12:47, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Played panic a bunch the last couple of weeks, still really not very strong at all. You just took all the updated skills and threw them into one shitty build. Good job, it sucks.--TahiriVeila 12:57, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

So, you say it suck, since you played it b4 the update. Tahiri, may I ask, why you say I just randomly took skills. I looked of course, saw the updates, and thought, these skills together create a nice build now. I made builds with them, I played it with a testing team against a R7/8 (saw the team standing in HA), and people went doen really good. Poor enough we didn't have good monk to co-op with us (some really didn't get anything of protection or healing), but we managed to deal a heavy blow to show this really works. Btw, I got compliments from my teammates that it worked very well if we had proper monks. Shadow Form Slayer 13:00, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say you just randomly took skills, I said you just used all the new skils. We found that usually panic isn't very effective at generating shutdown (in a GvG scenario, didn't test much in tombs but I still don't think it'd be great there except on alters) because most characters just aren't spamming skills right next to each other enough to cause significant interruption. Speccing edenial in tombs is a terrible choice in tombs because of channeling. If you don't bring huge enechant removal to keep channeling down always, you won't be able to edeny. If you CAN keep it down then the huge amounts of pure dps in tombs act as edenial b/c monks have to spam to keep up with it. Enchant removal is way more effective edenial in tombs than an esurge spam mesmer. Seeping wound sins are horrible choices as well, with the nerfs to them they're energy inefficient, can't be maintained on nearly as many peopl, can't snare significantly anymore, and are all around just weak now. All around it's a weak choice of builds, but hey it's tombs. Pushing kills isn't a measure of a good build b/c everyone in HA is awful. You can push kills with just about anything.--TahiriVeila 16:22, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Just saying, I know who you are, but sign. So, responding on all this:
1: Panic = like, bro, you just interrupted me. You needed that skill less than me. I liked it using in tombs, seeing interrupts all the time.
2: It is HA.
3: E-Denial has more uses. 3.1: Denial of course. 3.2: Aneurysm. 3.3: Mind Wrack spike.
4: Enough Ench-removal I think.
5: I know about dps, thats why mind wrack is getting reached more often. I know that, since we got the LS monk killed 2 times in no-time.
6: Seeping warriors are actually nerfed. The A/P is just a bit less efficient. Energy is no problem at all with the high crit-rate.
7: That's not true mister random guy.
Extra: I'd like to say it is actually a good all-round build I'd say. It's got the things you need if you do it right!. Shadow Form Slayer 13:16, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

SW now costs 15 Energy. I doubt its still a good skill, especially for Non-Caster professions. There's now way Paragons are going to be able to use it effectively.

I dare to challange you for e-efficiency! Shadow Form Slayer 13:17, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
We ran a build similiar to this in Ha earlier today... had no sw spears but crippling slash warrior and taint instead... btw throw WW to panic mesmer so u can try luring more rupts from your target (or spread it around to make sure something is rupted and u get nice aoe damage incase you have extra energy). we didn't bring backfire, or shame on our mesmers because we thought they would work in contradiction with panic. Symbolic posture is a nice choice for signet mesmer cos it works wonders when used before keystone (and you can perma hum quite easily). I'm not saying our variant would be better because we never tested this, but just bringin up some ideas88.113.135.202 14:31, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Depravity looks stronger than LC imo. If you're planning on putting strong emphasis into EDenail, Aneurysm seems a bit iffy. I think you should also also specialize more heavily in spike or pressure and change the mesmer bars accordingly.--XAM 19:42, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

All the above comments.

Okay, so I get it. Something in the change of the keystone, something in the change of the paras. Still, I don't get the energy problem. The assas main bar is all about SW (15e) WotM (5e) and DH (10e). Adding up brings to 30e. Easy if you maintain b4 combat. Fall Back=10e/make haste=5e. Those two must get solved with the ~50% chance of crit hit, resulting in 4 energy gain. If you want to counter this argument, please say me in a nice and of course a wise way Shadow Form Slayer 14:48, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Lol some unsigned person said "there's no way Paragons are going to be able to use it effectively". The skill is in Crit Strikes; they're A/Ps. And btw it works fine on them afaik, that's why the dagger SW build got archived but the spear hexway didn't (see Build:Team - HA Hexway).
I'm pretty sure Panic will work much better in cramped HA matches, especially altars, than in GvG, but I'm still not sure how effective it'd be. I'd rather take Migraine/ESurge. The ESurger does a lot of damage as well as E-Denial (ESurge was already Great-rated before it got buffed), though I agree you want strong enchantment removal to make this a pain for their monks. Widow maker 14:57, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
My instinct is to scrap the signet mesmer, unless you swap out Panic for Migraine (the 'rupting seems unsynergetic) and either go Panic/ESurge/LC and either another ESurge or a TC/Taint etc, or do something similar but with Migraine over Panic. Widow maker 15:00, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Good notes, including them. Shadow Form Slayer 15:07, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
How's this. Crippling Slash makes it entry in HA after SW worsening. I hope this works. Got to find out. Shadow Form Slayer 15:12, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Pfff, I think SW will still work on spears. If not you could always try HB or something. Maybe EShaker/HB or Cripslash/HB? I don't see anything wrong with dual cripslash but I don't think you really need the snaring all that much, except on running maps. HB or PRage would be more damage to go with the Mind Wrack pressure. Widow maker 16:39, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Counter Spirits

Since they are sooo famous, any ideas??? Shadow Form Slayer 15:53, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe take a pair of tough warriors or ranged attackers, like spear sins? Widow maker 16:37, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Take holy spear and rewind to A/P's??? Shadow Form Slayer 17:06, May 22, 2010 (UTC)


why not axe + hammer, alot more utility and damage, you could just fit MH over one drain or pdrain. Belzer 17:21, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Then I got one question. Attribute spending Shadow Form Slayer 17:25, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

You don't need many points for "MH!", and none for SoC. Maybe something like:

Assault Enchantments Jagged Strike Fox Fangs Death Blossom Critical Strike Exhausting Assault Rush Resurrection Signet
Seeping Wound Barbed Spear Vicious Attack "Make Haste!" Critical Eye Deadly Haste Way of the Master Resurrection Signet
Energy Surge Energy Burn Wastrel's Worry Mind Wrack Aneurysm Drain Enchantment Power Drain Song of Concentration
Energy Surge Energy Burn Shatter Enchantment Mind Wrack Aneurysm Drain Enchantment Power Drain Flesh of My Flesh
Panic Backfire Empathy Diversion Shame Drain Enchantment Power Drain Death Pact Signet
Lingering Curse Suffering Faintheartedness Enfeeble Grasping Earth Ward Against Foes Glyph of Lesser Energy Resurrection Signet

Or better still, put both "MH!" and Song on the 'sin. Then you have your OP enchantment removal, your snaring and condition pressure, and your energy denial. Sit 1 on one of the monks and spam Esurge all over the place. Widow maker 19:10, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I am busy atm, so if you want to make the change, make it. Shadow Form Slayer 19:25, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Just a suggestion, but it gives the ench removal mentioned above so it seems like you win both ways. I would put IP on the LC over Faint too, more synergy with Empathy, but you could easily go different targets I guess. I'll mainbar that for now, though (feel free to revert ofc). Widow maker 19:43, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Hell, you write even more than me... individual skill usage is overkill imo, given you're basically just repeating what the skill does. Anyway, I added the AE and make some tweaks, change back whatever you don't like. Widow maker 19:58, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Ty and yes, I like to make pages look beautiful :P Shadow Form Slayer 20:37, May 22, 2010 (UTC)


Now we are settle, please rate the build. We got 3 votes. 1 from me of course, though I argumented. Not just a random 5-5. Poorly enuf somebody thought E-management was a problem, so I ask if somebody will remove that vote please since it ain't true! Shadow Form Slayer 20:57, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I actually tested this, we didn't do so well but it was with PuGs and we didn't run the exact build. First we had a PnH over the SW but still managed at least one quick kill (I can't remember the details) in the match we lost (so the ESurgers and AE are decent pressure, I just don't think our monks were gr8), then we had some SW daggers which didn't work so well because their monks kept their enchants up fine. With the AE on the main page this ought to work fine, but if someone could test with a good team and compare with the latest OP build that's be better. Widow maker 21:18, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Im online, contact me as Shadow Form Slayer Shadow Form Slayer 21:19, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
K, it's good rated now. Poorly that 3-3 is on :S. That guy still doesn't have it right. Karate Jesus and Frosty, where are ya to support me :(. Shadow Form Slayer 21:46, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Lol nice vote-wiping. Widow maker 22:59, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Best hexway around atm?

Are you sure this is what most people are running? From what I have seen it's mostly Dual Mesmers in balanced, or even normal hexway (just a VoR). Haven't seen anything like this seen in hexway yet, because I can't really see the synergy. With all the hexes like backfire and stuff, you want people to be casting, denying energy kinda limits the damage a hexway can apply. --Frosty Frostcharge 22:16, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Let me make it clear to you. It is all-round deny. 2 Killer E-Surge with great damage (I checked it a few times in HA) and a killer AE, great pressure with Panic/SW. Overall, the thing we do need is a little support. That kinda bothers widow and me. Shadow Form Slayer 22:20, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
The synergy is really between ESurge and AE. Panic helps shut stuff down too. The backfire and things are a tad anti-synergetic, but some casting will get through so having a Backfire on someone can make up for downtimes, add pressure, or be used on a different foe (e.g. to shut down an ele or w/e while you focus on the monk), especially give some teams have a 3rd support char. 22:53, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Oops that was me, it unsigned me. People aren't running this exactly atm 'cos nobody wants to run SW spear after the nerf. The ESurgers are very popular, though; this just adds an AE for synergy. The SW spear can be swapped for something else with MH and Song, but imo the combination of degen, snaring and DW makes it the best thing for the job. I'm not sure this is the perfect set-up though, but everything's a bit up in the air after the update. Widow maker 22:56, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
Ofc this is more theorycraft than meta clearly, if that's what you mean, but triple builds are always rarer than dual ones (well, they tend to be). I mean, how often do you actually see triple ele compared with dual MB balanced? Widow maker 19:41, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


cowrd sins tbh--Unreal sig 1Cute mc puppies 05:38, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

After 23/05/2010

Widow and me tested a variant, which went better. I changed some thing, and this is the result. The defense is just weakness and counter the capability to cast. Shadow Form Slayer 07:46, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


1, Sign, 2, it went better with that. Shadow Form Slayer 11:41, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
Don't think ES is necessary, it's just always nice. Now you have snares on the Panic you have a lot more flexibility to take pretty much w/e you want in place of the TC and other frontliner (LC might actually be better than TC, but who doesn't love TC?). We tried with the MB/SH + ES combo and that worked pretty nice, but another sin or a different war ought to work.
And to anyone who things AEs are random, look here and here, as if its randomness matters, OP ench stipping + ESurge is epic e-denial. Widow maker 19:30, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

k actually ran a good version of this

just got off holding halls with this:

Earth Shaker Crushing Blow Hammer Bash Bull's Strike Song of Concentration Flail Enraging Charge Resurrection Signet
Lingering Curse Suffering Rend Enchantments Rip Enchantment Glyph of Lesser Energy Ward Against Foes Grasping Earth Resurrection Signet
Panic Backfire Empathy Diversion Leech Signet Power Drain "Make Haste!" Resurrection Signet
Energy Surge Mind Wrack Wastrel's Demise Overload Ether Phantom Drain Delusions Signet of Humility Resurrection Signet
Energy Surge Mind Wrack Wastrel's Demise Overload Ether Phantom Drain Delusions Cry of Frustration Flesh of My Flesh
Offering of Spirit Lamentation Renewing Surge Weapon of Shadow Resilient Weapon Anguished Was Lingwah Life Death Pact Signet

fucking, PANIC!! !! !! !! !! !! !! --Frosty Frostcharge 01:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oh and we actually ran much more retarded bars, but that's far more puggable (as in we ran weap of fury and a bb warrior lol). --Frosty Frostcharge 01:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
WoR/BB would be nice. I'm still in two minds about Panic generally but in Halls it's just cruel. I fancy trying this with a DwG tho. One question: How did you find ench removal? I would have thought losing both the AE and all three drains would have meant channeling stayed up, which meant no e-denial for the monks. Widow maker 11:13, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Rend HB, Rip Prot. --Frosty Frostcharge 11:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
And then proceed to roll your face across the keyboard.--Ikimono...And my Axe!Monk-Paragon-icon 11:45, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Oh lol, for some reason I missed the Rend, though you just had Rip. Also, Overload looks pretty awesome (forgot I'd been updated) but surely it's kinda anti-synergetic with Panic? I would have thought it would have worked better with a Migraine or something. Widow maker 11:48, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Tbh Panic is just a altar control skill, it also works great vs spikes such as SF, Rspike, lich etc etc. The Esurgers just spam shit on the backline while the Panic puts his backfires on offensive casters (works great on esurgers since they usually use mind wrack wastrel's and overload before they realise lol). --Frosty Frostcharge 11:58, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
A Rit is probably a good idea too 'cos the main problem of this is its squishiness I think. I might try running this again later. Widow maker 12:37, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Also I like your Mesmer bars better. Aneurysm is a good finisher but it's not brilliant for much else, except before Surge/Burn and on clumped foes. I was always dubious about EBurn; it's good for more EDenial and dmg but I think other things are more useful. Only thing is, Ether Phantom/Drain Delusions don't give as much energy as Drain Ench and PDrain and with no AE, more Ench removal is nice, otherwise I would have suggested them earlier myself 'cos they're better, but less energy means less Overload/WW spam, which gives E-Denial too, and more damage. Humsig is awesome ofc tho. Widow maker 12:47, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Ether Phantom -> Drain Delusions on someone with mind wrack is more damage and extra edenial, the emanagement is fine as long as you use them on recharge. --Frosty Frostcharge 12:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Fine, I just haven't tested this version out yet (and when I was testing stuff in RA the other day, other mesmers were ofc draining my energy). I mean, you can always take a Zealous Spear, but I think you'd rather be spamming your heart out all over their monks. Widow maker 13:10, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Go up read first line I wrote after the header. --Frosty Frostcharge 13:11, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Thank you all guys. I love this build now. And for the first time, it didn't get turned down. Thank you, especially Widow and Frosty. Shadow Form Slayer 14:30, May 26, 2010 (UTC)


So, less Overload spam and MW doesn't trigger on any of those hexes. Apparently it was enough to archive the Mind Wrack Mesmer. Can we use something else over Wastrel's Demise maybe? Widow maker 13:00, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ah well. The only thing which might work would be Ether Feast, and it's just not the same as spammable Overload damage. Never mind, it was good while it lasted :-) Widow maker 09:42, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
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