This isn't inferior to either Imbagon or Moebius+SY!, it's more of a mix between the two. Imbagon doesn't add much damage even when bringing Spear of Lightning, etc. It also doesn't have much self-defense outside of being ranged (since Cracked armor means 60AL). and the only advantage it has over this is TNTF! which is usually overkill after SY! Moebius obviously does more damage than this, but can't come close to maintaining SY! unless you have 10+ in lux/kurz. This can more than easily maintain SY!, even at low levels, and can also deal damage and have excellent self-preservation (75% blacks plus 100AL). This build is different to the other two, not inferior. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 19:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Self-preservation in a non-farming builds is bad. You have monks. Also, if you're snared, you can't put up SY anymore, so it's still inferior to an Imbagon. Not to mention, you're relying on enchantments. ··· Danny Does Drugs 19:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
When everyone else has +100AL and you've become a huge squishy target, self-preservation is good. And it's all stuff that maintains itself, so no damage is lost. Also, your snare argument could be said for ANY melee prof, including the godly MS>DB. This is actually less susceptible to snares because a lot of them are cripple, which CD will block. And if you do get snared, either get it removed or attack something that is sitting still. Not to mention, MS>DB relies on enchantments, as well as the majority of Assassin, Dervish, and caster builds. If you're expecting enchantment removal, bring a cover or just use a different build. Obvious counters to almost all builds are not a reason for a WELL tag. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 19:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Erm, if you're the only one on your team who is a squishy, the monk only has 1 person to focus on. Let monks do the work.----Signature-Liger414The Liger is looking for a HA guild 19:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
There's no point NOT running defense. You only need 3 skills here, so it's not like you're hard up for space. If the bar was really tight I'd agree, but it's self-maintainable and there's nothing else better to put there. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 19:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
You're arguing the wrong thing. this is bad because MS/DB can keep SY up just as well, and has much more dmg.--|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 21:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Wrong. MS>DB actually has a good amount of downtime. Even with an IAS, it takes about 5 and a half seconds to charge "SY!" Whereas here it takes 4.5 seconds or less. In other words, even with rank 3 or lower, this can near-maintain SY. I know that a lot of people don't AB much, which means that with MS>DB SY will be up barely more than two-thirds of the time with low ranks. Honestly, this should be compared more to Imbagon. They both play the same role, but this does more damage and has more overall defense. To me, this either needs to not be compared to MS>DB, or Imbagon needs to have a much lower rating (since according to your standard, it's inferior to MS>DB). --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 22:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Fine, I'll compare it to a dragon slash war. --|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 22:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
And imbagons have more defense than just SY. --|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 22:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
(EC)its good to have sy up as much as possible, but if ur not killing things in 3 seconds like you do with ms/db, then spamming save yourselves is pointless. that and you dont need save yourselves to win pve. and nothing compares to imbagon because he has tn2f and can stand around throwing his spear all protecting the back and middle line rather than a frontliner affecting 2-3 people half the time while he chases stuff down to hit--Relyk 22:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
IMO, TNFT seems pretty redundant to me. You've already got 80% damage reduction on the majority of damage coming in, why do you need more? And Imbagon can't kill well either, so why isn't it pointless? Also, DS+SY only lasts part of the time, with at least some downtime during the fight (it's still one of the better ways to maintain SY), and also doesn't do retarded amounts of damage with buffs like LF does. And by the way, I absolutely love Imbagon, DS+SY!, MS>DB (though I don't like how everyone thinks it's the only and best thing 'Sins can run), and other such builds, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for other good builds. This, while maybe not quite as powerful as MS>DB in general, should have its place on wiki simply due the synergy with physical buffs and the fact it can easily maintain SY with no downtime. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 01:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
imbagon does big damages! and tn2f is way too good not to bring anyways, theres no reason not to, its like critical agility on a sin. Btw locusts fury builds spamming sy have been posted about 15-16 times now, and in fact they dont do that much damage D:--Relyk 01:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Here's an example: If you had pre-nerf WotA and a +armor skill, why would you need CA? It's just like SY+TNTF in my eyes: It's redundant to bring it. Again, this might not be optimal, but it still has its uses and is not eclipsed by other SY builds like you make it out to be. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 04:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
TN2F is freaking amazing. SY! and TN2F are for completely different purposes. For one, TN2F actually protects you. Second, it protects against armor ignoring damage, as well as providing pressure relief when it ends. LifeWikiLOD7 04:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, about imbagons not doing damage... I run GFtE and Vicious on mine, I get plenty damage plus a DW almost always, and still have no SY downtime... And the "squishie", a 76AL midliner is not squishie (80-20+16)... That said, I think this build isn't inferior or superior to the MS/DB sin, they look about the same...Anwyn 06:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

You need to buy a Q7 15AL shield Anwyn. LifeWikiLOD7 06:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I have one Life, my post was meant for the majority that don't... ;) Anwyn 07:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Which is what most things should be tailored towards.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 07:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Also, this should be able to prevent damage simply because it can actually tank with 100AL and 75% block chance, which should at least rival the amount of damage prevented by TNTF. I will admit however that I somewhat forgot about the para's shield (for some reason I can't get it drilled into my brain that paras use shields, even though I actually have a paragon). Anyway, even if this isn't quite as great as Imbagon, never in hell does it deserve 1-1 votes, either. This deals more damage than Imbagon in almost all cases, and has right around as much defense for the team and himself. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Holy Pagebreak

If i were to run this, i would dual it, with a Order of The Vampire Necro, SoH, and Great Dwarf Weapon. if dualed in this fashon it would be able to pump out much more damage than an imbagon, spam knock downs like a hammer war on crack, and maintain a frontline through blocking. The thing with that is if you had both assassins go after the same target, that target would probably die in the same time-frame as a MS/DB. I'll test this real quick on a PvP Char. Brb.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 07:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I am astounded to say that Locust's Fury, not MS/DB, produced more DPS (An astounding 117 average with 7-17 daggers, no mods); albeit by about 3-8 damage per test. My mind keeps on going to something like this:

<pvxbig> [build prof=necromancer/monk bloodmagic=12+1+3 smitingprayers=12][order of the vampire][strength of honor][/build] </pvxbig> <pvxbig> [build prof=Mesmer/Necromancer FastC=10+1+1 Insp=8+1 Curse=12][Echo][Arcane Echo][Mark of Pain][Barbs][/build] </pvxbig> <pvxbig> [build prof=Assassin/Warrior Dagger=12+1+1 Critical=12+1][Dash]["Save Yourselves!"][optional][Critical Eye][Critical Defenses][Critical Agility][Locust's Fury][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

General nuclear explosions ensue. Probably run this with another SY, just to keep the sin covered though. depends upon area if there's a lot of aoe/non-attack damage.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 07:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Only reason why you would run MS/DB over this is if you wanted DB's AoE i guess. but offing a guy in 3-4 seconds is always a boon towards a build.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 07:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah, i see the above argument is whether to run this or an imbagon. If i had to choose, i'd have the imbagon and have better positioning. I'll stick with this and see what goes on through more use.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 07:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Switch the Curses Necro to Assassin's Promise. Much moar better. Also, This got changed a lot to make more viable in general but was originally based around pretty much the same idea you're using.
tl;dr, this excels with having lots of damage buffs on him. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
tl;dr to read single sentences spaced evenly...but you have summed up what i said. buffed, this rapes.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 18:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


people whose signatures contain an image of a monk class symbol overlayed on the symbol of another class are terrible and don't know how to gw. ··· Danny Does Drugs 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

lolurfunny. But here's the thing. Iki and I have actually tested the build, have you? It pumps out a lot more DPS than any of you give credit for. Imbagon is more defense-based, whereas this is more offense-plus-tank-based. They're both quite viable builds. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 18:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Indeed; This actually triggers On-Hit conditions like Mark of Pain/Barbs more than MS/DB so it will cause more damage if combined in that way. Your comment is moot danny.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 18:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't compare this to an imabagon. compare it to a DS/SY war. and too all those people saying that that it does lots of dmg with buffs, remember that now your bringing a bar and a half (or two bars if your bad) and as such should not be comparing dmg to a single char. basically , if you want to have perma SY and decent dmg, run a SY war, and if you want to do the same with a buffer, run an endurance scythe or a Lyssa's attacks spam.this doesn't deserve to be on the buildspace --|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 22:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
the difference between this and a war is:
    • This has more Hits-Per-Second and triggers on-Hit-Effects more.
    • Has Critical defenses to "lol-block" melee
    • Does a little more single target damage than MS/DB
Endurance Scythe would be good as well.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 23:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
If DS+SY is in Great even with downtime and only slighly more DPS overall than this (though GDW on someone else practically makes this right around the same), why can't this even be in Good? This is the best an Assassin can get for spamming SY, and you can't argue that. Every build mentioned has its downsides. Imbagon doesn't deal as much damage as some others and doesn't interact much with buffs; MS>DB is great, but can't maintain SY unless you have 10+ in allegiance rank; DS+SY has a good amount of downtime, and doesn't deal much more damage than this; Imbasin is reliant on enchantments and a skill or two from other people in the team to deal a lot of DPS. I still don't see why this shouldn't be vetted fairly. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 01:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Last i checked, sins dealt dmg...if this build gets a decent rating, get back to me when Monks use axes and rangers start staffing ppl.~Flesh Atrophy~"I R MudKipZ"Own&#039;d 04:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Assume it's run with SoH tbh. If you're a melee and not using SoH in pve, you should kill yourself. 04:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Last time I checked, ele's did damage, yet now they've got a build that both prots and heals better than pretty much any monk build. Also, necros using rit/monk heals. Also, Rits using scythes. Also, monks having actually useful smites. Also, dervishes going party-wide support. Professions don't need to stay within what they were initially designed to do. Your point is moot. Oh, and monks have no synergy with axes, this has hella synergy with adrenaline/damage-buff skills. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 04:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
You must rate the build on what is on the page, not what it could potetially be in a perfect vacuum with 14 team mates buffing the crap out of it. If you want this to be rated with buffs, make a team build featuring the buffs. --- VipermagiSig -- (contribs) (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Well obviously you'd run this with a team or heros tailored to buffing up the melee. Like you would do with any other build. What is this, first day of prophecies?--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 13:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok, im hereby trashing every GvG build thats not a team, because it will be owned by the other team fo 8 because there isnt any healing. LifeWikiLOD7 23:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

well ofc i always advertise paragons. i'm not comparing this to an imbagon, i'm comparing it to MS/DB, which only has Death Blossom's AoE over this, which can get fucked up if mobilous doesn't hit at >50% albeit small of a chance. And this still triggers Mark of Pain Loooooads of times more than MS/DB.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 23:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

ups--Relyk 02:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad Votes

WTF, this spams SY as well as an Imbagon with nearly as much damage as an MS>DB spammer. How are 1-1's justified here? Half of them are simply using the argument "Locust's Fury..." when people have shown that LF can be useful. The others have misconceptions on how the build functions, and are almost completely false. This has been shown to be able to easily keep up with MS>DB, and I've already argued why this isn't inferior (though it's somewhat doubtful that this is superior...) to Imbagon. Can someone please remove the completely troll votes so this can be vetted more fairly? --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 03:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

you say this does more damage than a moebuis death blossem spammer when you add in the fact hat you hve oov and other buffs. Im sure a aoe explosion from a MS/DB spammer with all those buffs does more, and you still dont understand paragons do it better.they can spam "SY!" and many, other,helpful things.UnrealSignature1 03:50, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't say that it has more damage, I say it has close to the same damage. Add GDW or SoH and this easily maintains the damage of MS>DB. Add both and it'll stay even with MS>DB even if it also has the buffs. Honestly, the best build that this compares to is DS+SY. If using GDW, this does at least as much, if not more damage, with more KD's, as much SY maintainability, and as much or more survivability due to 100AL and 75% blocks. It can also actually use somewhat more utility than DS, considering it has 1-2 slots (one being PvE) for whatever you'd like. Oh, and it has no downtime save for recasting LF. So how is it that DS+SY is in great, yet this is being trashed? I don't see how this works. Oh right, it's because PvX has decided to WELL/trash anything outside of the utmost cookie-cutter builds. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 03:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
if it works for you use it, but its not working for the majority of people so its not going to reflect htat its a perfect build. noone is stopping you from putting it under its own page for your own personal use it just wont be udnr the great category by other's standardsUnrealSignature1 04:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
cause ds charges sy in one hit with fgj. you dont even have dw on this--Relyk 04:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
No one has even fucking tried this build! And before you say it, yes, you can judge most builds by the skill bar but this is one build where testing it actually gives you much better insight into the build's effectiveness. And of course it's not perfect, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be vetted fairly. And relyk, just because you can charge SY in a single hit doesn't make it more effective. This can still completely maintain SY. And not every single fucking melee build needs DW, and if you REALLY have to have it, bring Finish Him, it's in variants. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 04:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
LF:50% more double strikes. DB:double strike every other attack. --|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 17:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)stfu.
MS>DB is one double strike every 3 attacks, whereas exactly 65% of hits are double strikes with LF (Dagger Mastery), or right around twice as many double strikes, which adds up quickly. But whatever, I'm going to stop arguing until I can further test this next week so I can know exactly how much damage this has compared to MS>DB. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 04:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, when i tried this out the DPS was too fast it looked like i was getting 100% double strikes.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 05:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Less Damage Than MS>DB? Ha.

Alright, I got into some testing and found some pretty damn strong results for LF. LFpic 1 MSpic 1 LFpic 2 MSpic 2

So basically, the first two pictures show that with no buffs LF has around 17 DPS less than Moebius. But remember it has no downtime with SY. The second two show that when given buffs, LF actually makes up the difference, and even with only 3 buffs both builds have 192 DPS. In other words, no matter how you look at it you're sacrificing very little damage for better defense. Also note how LF actually has an extra open slot, and really only uses 3-5 skills, whereas MS>DB takes around 5-6 to do the same. Obviously, this isn't nearly as bad as people say it is. Oh, and just to mention DT! on the LF: Normally you'd run this with other buffs and also my heroes are badly runed for the above skills, and BH! actually should only come out to like 7 or so DPS, so it shouldn't have warped the results. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

didn't your pictures show they have the same single target dps (cept LF has no deep wound), and that MS has aoe to blow mobs up, along with that?--|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 16:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Mark of Pain. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
do you have any idea how retarded that is?--|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 16:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
AND WHAT IS STOPPING YOU FROM TAKING MARK OF PAIN WITH MS/DB? also you used dodge this with locust's fury and not MS/DB, nice try --Ojmo 16:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
(ec2times) Adjacent AoE really isn't great anyway, unless things are packed in extremely tightly. When I play MS>DB it's rare to hit more than 1-2 people with AoE. Maybe I'm just bad, but meh. Also, DS+SY has no AoE, and probably has around the same DPS as this, yet it's in Great. And to Ojamo, yes, MS>DB can take MoP but won't be as effective because this has a faster attack rate. Still, that was basically just an argument against the fact that LF has no AoE. And I used DT! because LF was using about 2 skills less than MS>DB, so I decided to fill it out a tad (and look above, I already mentioned it). --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Stopped reading at AoE isnt great --Ojmo 16:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Adjacent AoE, not AoE in general u nub. Either you have to bring a tank to ball everything up, or you'll be lucky to find 3 foes grouped together. In some areas it works well because they pack in like sardines, but normally, things just don't group closely enough. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I way prefer LF to MS/DB. Reunion 16:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

only advantage I see is leaning back and zzz tab-spaceing under SoH while your roj heros do the work.--|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 16:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
LF is all about buffing, and if you buff it enough it does way more than MS/DB. MS/DB also doesn't even get to the DB most of the time as the target is dead so the AoE is pretty much null, and even when it does get to DB its rare to have more than 1 person adjacent. MS/DB can also have a downtime (not often but it happens) which is sort of bad. Not that MS/DB isn't good, but I really do prefer LF because its huge dps. Reunion 16:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
LF is for lazy people, MS/DB for Palm Strike sins. --- VipermagiSig -- (contribs) (talk) 16:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
except you can put the same buffs on MS/DB and do more damage + aoe. --Ojmo 17:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
If you put on like, enough buffs to actually abuse LF it does more damage. Reunion 17:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
2 MS/DB >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 Lf and 1 Buffer. gg--|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 17:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeah because I'm dumb enough to put every buff on 1 guy. It takes up like 4 skill slots over the entire build. Reunion 17:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
and you can still put every single one of those buffs on MS/DB, and do more damage. --Ojmo 20:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the more buffs you have, the better Locust's is compared to MS/DB, as evidenced by the screens right above this. LifeWikiLOD7 20:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

so, ur wasting 2 members to buff a single person, while u could just take something else more useful and u can just run MS/DB which already does plenty of dmg (not to mention AoE) 21:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

LF triggers on hit conditions like Barbs and Mark of Pain much quicker than MS/DB, if used with those, enemies will die much quicker than if you used MS/DB. Truth hurts. Sorry. I'd still run a scythe sin though.--Ikimono"a rabid grizzly bear"Monk-Paragon-icon 17:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Scythe sins can't use SY. And even without buffs, this does more than 90 DPS, which is more than most melee builds in the game. Basically, you're sacrificing about 20 DPS for full maintainability of SY! --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 17:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
You're sacrificing damage AND AoE, I'd take Moebius.----Signature-Liger414The Liger is looking for a HA guild 18:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


running 3 MS/DB sins over 1 LF and 2 buffers wins every time. ··· Danny Does Drugs 18:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, RoJ is adjacent AoE for about the same damage as Death Blossom. Is RoJ bad then? Stop fellating yourself with bad math and logic. ··· Danny Does Drugs 18:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
You don't need 2 buffers for this to work, you need anyone with SoH, and you're pumping past 100 DPS. Again, this isn't trying to compete with the damage of MS>DB, it's trying to compete with SY spamming on characters like Warriors and Paras. And also, RoJ deals about, what, 300 AoE? This takes much longer to actually do that much, and also requires at least 3-5 skills to do so (RoJ takes exactly 1). And even then, when I play my RoJ in general PvE, it's hard to hit more than 2 people in the AoE, and that's when actually carefully choosing targets instead of the cspace everyone uses on melees. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 22:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
tl;dr, the build is trashed anyway get over it. Lightningbolt siguɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 22:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
retract what i said earlier, this build is amazing! roll w/ OotV, SoH, & splinter wep, it's aww inspiring..~Flesh Atrophy~"I R MudKipZ"Own&#039;d 01:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
lol, now you're just torturing him--|Hipowi sig Hipowi pew pew pew 01:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

autoattacking is boring, which makes pve even more boring--Relyk 02:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Watching yellow numbers fill your screen while you micro your heroes is pretty fun IMO. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 03:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

MS or LF, who cares?

Scythes>all. And Paragons are better with "SY!"

SoH just brought LF on par with MS for single target damage. XD ــѕт.мıкε 02:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and Scythes+GDW=AoE KDs, which is very amusing. =P ــѕт.мıкε 02:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I've run Critscythe before, and I honestly prefer this and MS>DB. My Zealous Vow derv hits for just as much/more damage, and can spam attack skills on single targets as much as he wants, and can also spam "SY" (though not nearly to the effect of other builds). And as said before, especially when you consider in Dash for anti-kite or moving between foes, this maintains SY just as well as an Imbagon. Also, dual splinter is the sexiest thing you will ever see in PvE. Just sayin. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 04:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Big Summary

By itself, LF has approximately 20 less DPS than MS>DB, and does not have any AoE. With ample buffs, (such as a smiter with SoH, and a necro with Barbs/MoP/SW), this easily deals as much or more single target damage as MS>DB, and somewhat similar AoE (even including MS>DB also having those buffs). This also maintains SY! much better than MS>DB due to a faster attack speed, and Dash means less vulnerability to kiting and spread out foes (something MS>DB is going to have difficulty with). While not quite as consistant in SY maintaining as Imbagon, it's close to the same consistancy. It also provides far more damage and a very tankable frontliner. This honestly feels like the best build you can run for H/H, due to perma-SY, and overall good tankability/damage. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 04:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

In terms of survivability for the team, it might be, but for H/H to maintain all those buffs properly is quite unlikely (Barbs and MoP can be all over the place) so your DPS will drop. A Sin that intends to use "SY!" on its own bar can also have an ally using Dark Fury, so the difference in adrenaline gain will quite small, although being able to fit an IMS on the bar is still nice. ــѕт.мıкε 11:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Ping a target and barbs will go on it the majority of the time. And bringing DF requires large amounts of energy and at least a small spec into a mostly useless attribute. Still, you're right; if you bring something like an Orders Derv, then you might as well take MS>DB, but that's only one combination and requires you to drop another hero. Right now I'm running a Smiter hero with Splinter and SoH, an SS nec with Barbs/MoP/Splinter, and then a regular N/Rt healer. I'm currently rolling through everything I've played so far, and dual Splinter literally rapes everything in Nightfall (Kodonur Crossroads with its tight-knit enemies was freaking heaven). I might try subbing the N/Rt for an Orders Derv, though, and bring MS>DB and watch what happens. I still think that this isn't inferior to other options, just better or worse in certain situations. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 14:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I found Orders Heroes to be quite inefficient, because they can hardly manage maintaining Orders, and even less whatever else they have on their bar at the same time. After a lot of use out of an Orders Dervish and [[[Build:N/Rt_Well_of_Support|this]] (separately, of course) with my Imbagon, it seems those builds look much better on paper. With Heroes and Henchmen, I'd most likely go for a Sabway-like team instead of a bunch of physicals+buffs. ــѕт.мıкε 21:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, my team was getting facerolled by HM, consisting of a Smiter monk (RoJ, SoH, etc), Orders Derv, and SS/Splinter. One reason of this could be because I literally couldn't get to the fucking things before the battle was over or until the team wiped, because of about 4 snares being cycled on me (far shiverpeaks, lots of water ele's). This meant I couldn't get of SY on my MS>DB, so my team, not having an MM or other meat shield, was getting raped up the butt by melee and AoE.
Anyway, yes, I would agree that Orders doesn't work well on heroes, and I'm likely to go back to my Sab variation of RoJ/SS/Resto combination. This also means I'm probably going back to LF, because otherwise I can't maintain SY, and without an MM (which I prefer not having due to annoying targetting and aggro issues) I need to keep SY up or the team will collapse. Honestly, with decent heroes and henchies you have enough damage to kill anything in around 5 seconds or less (I usually only get to cast Asuran Scan every few enemies, even when running a fairly defensive setup). Also, for H/H it is useful having an autoattack build like this, simply because it's easier to micro heroes when you're not managing a full bar yourself. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 22:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
i just showed my guild this jai, and they all hated it. A, b/c it didnt use an elite that they were used to seeing and B. they had their heads too far up their MS>DB butts to give something different a try.~Flesh Atrophy~"I R MudKipZ"Own&#039;d 15:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Some people just have misconceptions about LF. Everyone thinks that dagger attacks deal very little damage, which is true, but if you have a +21 damage buff that's multiplied by 50%+ and you an add an attack speed of almost twice a second, you get crazy DPS, no matter how much dagger damage you're doing.
Also, I thought about something - the argument of also being able to bring big buffs on an MS>DB doesn't hold quite as well. See, an LF 'Sin has enough speed to maintain SY, and does it a lot better than MS>DB. This means it can take a more offensive setup, replacing the MM or SS of a traditional Sabway with a RoJ nuker with SoH. If you tried this with MS>DB, you wouldn't have the same defense as LF gives, which makes it much more difficult to fit a smiter into the mix. In other words, if you bring SoH for an MS>DB 'Sin you give up some of the defense of SY that you lost from not taking LF. And if you factored in SoH for LF and not for MS>DB, I'd bet that LF's single-target DPS would surpass MS>DB's. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 20:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Ugh, I explained that terribly tbh. Basically, the equivalent of MS>DB running regular Sabway for LF is by dropping one of the necros for a RoJ nuker with SoH. You have about the same amount of defense either way, but only LF is able to comfortably bring SoH. This means its single-target DPS rivals MS>DB's, and even in AoE DPS, if you bring Splinter on both the RoJ and the SS. IMO, if running H/H and with what I have seen in tests I have conducted, both perform very similar, and I don't think either is an inferior or superior option. IMO, both should be in buildspace, but to each his own. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 23:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
A while ago I tried going through the math to prove that LF is bad: User:St._Michael/MSDBvsLF (just went over my calculations), but with the SoH buff, it's much easier for an LF sin to out-DPS a MS/DB Sin on a single target. An LF sin needs buffs that add up to 68 additional damage to surpass an MS/DB Sin with the same buffs. Mind you, I didn't count base damage, because armor will often reduce it to 5. 68 +dmg actually isn't too bad, though, if you've got a player team. GDW (20 maxed)+EBSoH (15 maxed)+SoH (26@16)=61, and Asuran Scan and the base damage of the quicker attacking LF Sin will should make up for the rest in most PvE. ــѕт.мıкε 02:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
One thing you forgot to mention is that MS>DB won't double strike for the first two attacks (lead-offhand). Also, read what I wrote before. It's somewhat easy to postulate that an LF can bring SoH without MS>DB being able due to higher defense, allowing for you to drop a more defensive hero for a smiter. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 03:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
too many people are tending to say, "whoop, it has Locust's Fury, must be bad" and i ask them to test it and say they wont cause they can see it's bad...which is BS cause i run this pretty much everywhere i go (got tired of Discordway)~Flesh Atrophy~"I R MudKipZ"Own&#039;d 12:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Higher defense lolwut? You're just terrible. Get your head out of your ass before it gets wedged in too tight. ··· Danny Does Drugs 16:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It's because LF can manage "SY!" better than MS/DB. When playing H/H, this can mean a lot, although I'm not sure if I'd give up the AoE of MS/DB or a Scythe for it.
@Jaigoda, I'd either take Unsuspecting Strike+Golden Fang Strike (for massive damage and DW) or Golden Phoenix Strike (which means you can skip the lead attack), so it's either compensated for or only applies to the first attack, tbh. ــѕт.мıкε 19:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Unsuspecting is baed... If you have any AoE you'll never trigger it more than the first time. Even if you don't (which is pretty sad - it's PvE, y'know?), ranged targets will probably deal enough damage to get them under 95% before you even make it to the target. Plus it's 10 energy, which means you're losing a lot of energy for your starter. You're better off with GFS for a lead. And yeah, I much prefer using GPS, but most people don't use it, so I didn't use it as an example (and it does have its disadvantages, namely the recharge). --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 22:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Mike and Jai are both bad. Unsuspecting is way too hard on energy for a MS/DB. GPS has way too long of a recharge for pve(aka, you're useless once your target dies in 2 seconds). You should be running golden fox-->golden fang/wild blow(depending on area and setup), and then MS/DB. LifeWikiLOD7 22:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Moebius Strike recharges Golden Phoenix Strike. Also, Unsuspecting Strike isn't that hard to fuel. I think I used to run a MS/DB Sin with a Conjure (and thus no Zealous Daggers) and Critical Eye. ــѕт.мıкε 22:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Your logic is flawed. If you actually get to MS every foe you attack, you're doing it wrong. Even with a 5 energy lead your energy is pretyy bad(thats assuming Asuran Scan). LifeWikiLOD7 22:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
If you know they're going to die in 2 hits, save GPS for the next foe. =/ ــѕт.мıкε 23:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Then you'd never use an attack skill, save bosses. LifeWikiLOD7 23:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Then what's the point of running MS/DB, or even LF because you can't really kill much faster than that? XD ــѕт.мıкε 23:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Lol, I love when people argue against GPS because they think Moebius won't hit and recharge everything, without realizing that with GFS>WS they don't even get to Moebius, meaning your elite is useless against all but stuff like bosses. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 16:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Or just run Discordway with a Discordway caller bar and don't worry about anything because you're running Discordway. ··· Danny Does Drugs 17:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
...or get off topic from what this is titled for...~Flesh Atrophy~"I R MudKipZ"Own&#039;d 21:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I run Sabway on all of my characters, and cba to change to Discordway. And not everyone wants to run Discord anywhere and everywhere. Otherwise, any build without a hex and condition should technically be deleted/archived. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 22:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

What I Run With This

<pvxbig> [build prof=Necromancer/Ritualist Curses=12+1+1 Channeling=10 SoulReaping=8+1 restoration=2][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Splinter Weapon][Rip Enchantment][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build] </pvxbig> <pvxbig> [build prof=Necromancer/Monk SoulReaping=9+1 DeathMagic=12+1+1 ProtectionPrayers=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Shambling Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Death Nova][Putrid Bile][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Signet of Lost Souls][/build] </pvxbig> <pvxbig> [build prof=Mo/any SmitingPrayers=12+1+1 DivineFavor=8+1 Channeling=10][optional][Empathic Removal][Splinter Weapon][Castigation Signet][Divine Healing][Heaven's Delight][Strength of Honor][Flesh of My Flesh][/build] </pvxbig>

You have as much defense as Sabway considering now you're permanently maintaining SY, and you now actually have good defense against hexes, something Sabway normally lacked. Before, I ran two henchie monks along with Sab, because a lot of damage was getting through, and I run the same with this. You also have as much or more damage, considering you've now got 2 copies of Splinter, as well as Strength of Honor (though that just gets your single-target DPS on par with MS>DB). I'm sure you could adopt this for Discordway as well, but I only run Sab so you guys will have to figure that out yourselves. Bottom line is, after extensive testing this feels stronger and just slightly better overall than MS>DB for H/H. I'm done arguing for this, if people don't want it on buildspace I'll just leave it here and continue rolling PvE with it.

i honestly dont think castigation sig is good enough e management tbh. the reason necroes are ran is b/c of superior e management. Flesh Atrophy Epic VQ 21:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Ogden manages energy fine. I only use SoH on me, and only two skills are spammable (and Empathic they don't even spam much anyway). If you're maintaining SoH on 2-3 people, you might want to take Blessed Sig for the optional. I normally run Bane Signet, simply because I can't think of anything else that's cheap and un-spammable (RoD for example would probably ruin all energy management here). --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 02:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm bumping this for attention and e-peen stroking. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 19:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Unspecced Rezchant is horrible (it's mediocre when specced at 8-10, and almost good at 14). 6 seconds is just too long, and 5% energy is essentially nothing. Consider either not taking rez (it's PvE; you shouldn't need more rezzes than what henchies carry), or getting DPSig (triple energy when unspecced)/Flesh (it casts faster, making it better). --- VipermagiSig -- (contribs) (talk) 20:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Ur rite, fomf is bettar. Mi bild wtfpwn nao? --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 20:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Bumpzzz. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 14:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Why are you bumping a build in your userpsace? Selket Shadowdancer 14:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Imbagon! --Frosty Mc Admin 15:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm bumping it because I want this build to be seen, and get people to realize it's actually not bad. I'm not moving it to build space because I know shitters are going to WELL/trash it on sight. I myself know that it is actually as good or better than Moebius when considering team composition, so I think it at least deserves to be vetted as good. See, one thing people don't realize is that this has gotten buffed to heaven over time. With EotN came Asuran Scan among other things (and that's what really makes this thing's damage wtfpwn), and then the buff to SoH means this actually has a very viable means of dealing damage.
I'm going to run another test soon and run exactly what I use with Moebius and this (Barbs, MoP, and 1 Splinter for Moebius; Barbs, MoP, SoH, and 2 splinters for Imbasin). And before you people start complaining about LF getting more buffs, there's a reason why it has more. Since I'm perma-maintaining SY, I can easily drop the necro healer and bring a smiter hero instead. I've tried the same with Moebius, and it didn't work out very well at all. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 15:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
it is good, i use it over moebius. ppl are to strapped to pressing 1,2,3,4,3 that they dont want to own stuff w/ just spacebar Flesh Atrophy Epic VQ 02:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
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