Talk: A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker

Told you guys i would find a decent palm strike build.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 10:15, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Sorry but i'm sure everyone basically hates Palm Strike and say it'll never work. Also you forgot the Usage paragraph and correct the equipment.DiamondTheory 11:08, 8 December 2008 (EST)

will fix.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Not a bad palmstrike build. --Frosty 11:13, 8 December 2008 (EST)

<pvxbig> [build prof=a/w dagg=12+1+1 crit=12+1][leaping mantis sting][lotus strike][twisting fangs][palm strike][blades of steel][frenzy][dash][resurrection signet][/build] </pvxbig> obaby, no kd tho :O--ChristmasRelyk 11:16, 8 December 2008 (EST)

not bad, but palm strike has an after cast and is not effected by Frenzy, so that build would give a player time to possibly recover.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Put Flurry on main bar? It's a better option than Frenzy while playing Random Arena, and it also gives you the option to take Assassin's Remedy/Critical Defense. Banaantje 11:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)

You can always dash after them--ChristmasRelyk 11:21, 8 December 2008 (EST)

well, I've got flurry in the variants, as well as AR. Personal preference really, but i'll put Flurry on the mainbar if asked echoed a few times.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:31, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Tag it for hb imo--ChristmasRelyk 11:41, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Think it would work there? really? i havent done any HB in a while so..--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:54, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Tested with Flurry, there was no visable difference between the two's killing time. Flurry goes on mainbar.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 12:46, 8 December 2008 (EST)

*meekly* I like Palm Strike... =.= Also, this isn't bad, I suppose. Palm Strike is always a good thing to have for just a burst of random damage. The double falling chain is a manly bonus. All-around pretty solid chain. Someone is ALWAYS going to say "omfg after-cast" but I could see this working in RA, HB, and even AB when not attacking bunched up NPCs. My only regret is that you beat me to the first good Palm Strike sin build that will probably be vetted. :P KaHasuken 21:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)

I don't think this would work well in AB, at least not for capping shrines. I prefer AoE damage for AB and this lacks it. But surprisingly the aftercast has served, in my RA testing, to my advantage. As soon as a stance monk gets hit by Palm Strike, they 90% of the time activate their defensive stance to block the oncoming chain. Due to the small aftercast, it gave me enough time to hit escape to wait for their stance to end, and then go into my attack chain after counting to 4. So that was an unexpected boon on it's part.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:11, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Shall I move it to testing now or have a few more people look at it?--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:12, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Wait for rawar or god to use the rapestick--ChristmasRelyk 23:26, 8 December 2008 (EST)

but frosty okayed it...fine i'll wait for godbox or Rawr...--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:11, 9 December 2008 (EST)

I've got the urge to say that this would be improved upon just by mainbarring Assassin's Remedy and using Golden Phoenix Strike, which IS affected by IAS and saves the elite slot. Having the first skill in a chain of 5 be unblockable isn't doing you a whole lot. -- ShazamTheSnake _{hissssssssssss} 01:40, 9 December 2008 (EST)

I usually lol pretty hard at assassins who rely on assasin's remedy for their spikes. Rip enchantment is fucking everywhere, andy time i see an assassin using Assassin's Remedy, i immediately rip it, rendering that assassin "Lol hittin you wif mah daggers". The point of this build was to have something that wasn't susceptible to enchantment removal, is able to spike a lot, and isn't a build that is already in circulation. i have had Assassin's remedy instead of dash and that has worked decently, but dash's ability to get out and into combat quickly is one of those boons that cant be ignored.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 02:05, 9 December 2008 (EST)

and there's a bit more than just "unblockable" that is going for Palm Strike. It's also an offhand that delivers a high packet of damage, with a good recharge time, that can be used even when incapacitated from anti-melee.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 02:09, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Shameless bump for the companion cube and rawar.../further discussion.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 16:00, 9 December 2008 (EST)

wow, thought i would get at least 1 notice, perhaps it was too early in the day last time.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 22:40, 9 December 2008 (EST)

You needa put an "elitist" timezone over the GMT one on your computer clock. =P -- ShazamTheSnake _{hissssssssssss} 01:22, 10 December 2008 (EST)

hehheh...perhaps i can just sneak this onto the mainpage to get it noticed more...--IkimonoI know my Paragons 09:03, 10 December 2008 (EST)

its ok. its just another meh sin spike build. they all get very very very repetitive :) and no it got noticed!Saomachuen 10:19, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Should it be moved into testing?

I don't think this build can be made any better really, it works well enough for where it is marked for and the skills cant really be improved greatly. The spike is pretty sturdy, and the build works pretty well still with Assassin's Remedy instead of Dash. Personally i prefer Dash and just like to put a rune of clarity (or whatever one reduces blind duration..) So I'll make a note that having one of those runes is a good idea. You only trade off 10Hp anyways for the rune so big whoop there. Other than that, i don't really see a way this can really be Improved in any significant way.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 10:24, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Get rid of falling spider so you can bring some actual utility--ChristmasRelyk 10:58, 10 December 2008 (EST)

And make it not a spike build? you use both falling's in a single spike. with a 33% IAS you can get both attacks in for the time that an opponent is on the ground. + there are plenty of assassin builds that don't have utility or have very little.(ikimono)--72.189.85.14 12:59, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Wow this thing is amazing! I love it! my new fav build thanks to whoever made it ^^ Joan Sandbox 13:13, 10 December 2008 (EST)

your welcome :P--IkimonoI know my Paragons 13:36, 10 December 2008 (EST)

QQ about utility. The most popular assassin build of all time, the SP sin way back when, had no utility. Id also like to say that i like this build. Palm strike looks to be successful--70.22.228.86 13:23, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Moved to testing to either get it out the door or voted.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 15:36, 10 December 2008 (EST)

...god damn, just wrong, votes again...

Setting aside skill bias, let me point out a few of the reasons why this build is "better" than several others: Does not require an enchantment (rofl rip enchantment is meta), Does not require Build up of Adrenaline, and it Does not require a condition (dismiss cackles hi). It's only actual heel is it requires Horns of the Ox to activate properly, which it does 90% of the time if you're not God-Awful-Stupid. Taking into account these pros, the votes that have this build confused with something else probably should be purged with acid salt. But for the time being, seeing as how another one of my (should be at least Other rated builds) has gone to the trolls of PvX, I'll just keep loling as I kill off monks using Shield Bash to stop me using Palm Strike, Necromancers with a last ditch Insidious Parasite because i had enough patience to wait for insidious to wear off the first time, and using this build to slap palyers in the face saying "see, palm strike actually works and isn't complete utter tripe, I myself had my doubts, but who'da have thunk?"--IkimonoI know my Paragons 22:59, 10 December 2008 (EST)

QQ78.20.153.111 14:45, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Change horns of the ox for trampling ox, it should really pwn now man! Joan Sandbox 21:00, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Well now this^ makes more sense because of the skill buff. the 0-0-0's especially the ones saying no snare need to be changed.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 22:27, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Buff

<pvxbig> [build prof=A/W name="Flailing Palm Strike" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Flail][Palm Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig> use this →J.J. berks (contrib) 21:03, 11 December 2008 (EST)

am i missing something? cause Trampling Ox still requires (or at least i'm outta the update loop) cripple. and seeing as how there's no cripple in that build anywhere...i'm confused. Did palm strike get a buff or something?--IkimonoI know my Paragons 21:07, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Yes, it now applies cripple. Thunda 21:08, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Yah, go go with this. It really owns now, just trying it atm is SO much easier to spike and palm strike recharges faster now... it's good thing Joan Sandbox 21:09, 11 December 2008 (EST)

oh my god i didn't see the recharge decrease! This build is completely viable now.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 21:13, 11 December 2008 (EST)

So all my Palm Strike Build are pro now? :D.--User:Glutton

Votes

Need to be wiped. The buff to Palm Strike makes it Amazing.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 21:12, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Seriously, just go ahead and vote again this is just beyond amazing, Horns was a hassle that was the only down in this build... take it off now is great. Joan Sandbox 21:19, 11 December 2008 (EST)

this

<pvxbig> [build prof=Assassin/Warrior CriticalStrikes=12+1 DaggerMastery=12+1+1][Palm Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Horns of the Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Flurry][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig> sick thing is, if you miss an offhand, you can just palm strike again and keep on going lmao.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 22:05, 11 December 2008 (EST)

chain takes ~6.25 seconds, has high damage, snare, dual kd, and disgusting flexibility.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 22:13, 11 December 2008 (EST)

(EC)Flail>Flurry since Crippling →J.J. berks (contrib) 22:14, 11 December 2008 (EST)

I honestly have never missed both of the Fallings, and see below the build for IAS optionals.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 22:21, 11 December 2008 (EST)

KD lock on a spike that flexible is damn sexy.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 23:44, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Meh, horns of the ox fails more often than you can think, it was a down side from the last version of this build, the two falling strikes are quite appealing and I've never failed with them, unless I have my IAS reduced or no IAS Joan Sandbox 00:02, 12 December 2008 (EST)

it only fails if you're bad with it, and even if it does, then guess what? palm strike->Twisting Fangs.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:09, 12 December 2008 (EST)

well, fainthearted fucks the spike up. But that isn't too common now days. More often people just take Insidious Parasite. but then now you can, like you said, palm strike again and use fangs.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 08:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)

tbh anti-melee fucks up any melee.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 12:30, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Perhaps we/I should make Dash optional as well in favor for keeping a slot open for either AR or Horns of the Ox...seems pretty reasonable to me.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:22, 12 December 2008 (EST)

main bar IMO. you can always catch someone, even without IAS, and once they're caught, it's stronger.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Buff2

I see some people saying that there are no snares; I suggest you look up the new functionality of Palm Strike before voting. As well as try it.Joan Sandbox 00:07, 12 December 2008 (EST)

The votes are old. God Zefir 00:09, 12 December 2008 (EST)

they are still being counted and the build has been completely changed by plam's cripple Joan Sandbox 00:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Wait for the voters to get online...people do sleep. God Zefir 00:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)

I've notified the people who gave 0-0-0's so hopefully they will change their votes.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 00:54, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Suggestion

Since Palm strike recharges every 4 secs, maybe switch falling spider for BoS for more damage? (Palm => TO => Lotus => Twisting => Palm => BoS) Dre 04:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Could be possible... but the aftercast from Palm Strike may give a healer time to recover...but against non-healers I can see that work pretty well. but then you've got only 3 dagger attacks recharging, so Death Blossom could be better. + you could get a lot of DPS from Palm Strike and Death Blossom with zealous daggers.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 08:42, 12 December 2008 (EST)

BoS counts itself as recharging.Dre 09:27, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Maybe you could add a little self heal, or find yourself a personal monk :P. User:Glutton

Generally pretty common. especially with all the monks testing out the new elites in RA.--66.192.104.13 11:13, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Makes it a bit slower but the extra damage may come in handy, may be put under variants? I like dash personally but the extra damage sounds more like personal choice :) Joan Sandbox 11:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)

AB

Who tagged this build for AB...--IkimonoI know my Paragons 12:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Why's that a problem? Spaggage talk 13:01, 12 December 2008 (EST)

stop being so fucking bad

and take reason.decrystallized's build. Smurf Ohai 16:34, 12 December 2008 (EST) seriously.

uh, this works just as well. you just use palm strike after twisting.--72.189.85.14 19:33, 12 December 2008 (EST)

it's a question of dual knocklocks being sexy, not a little bit more damage.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 20:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)

while i have to agree with what you say, why not just kill in 1 KD with the current build?--66.192.104.13 20:46, 12 December 2008 (EST)

there is no such thing as a spike that always kills. period. but a spike with dual kd is more likely to kill, and rather more useful if it doesn't.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 21:06, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Removed the whole retarted dual offhand idea and added BoS and Impale. Now it's got a good amount of damage and DW. -- Guild of Deals 21:24, 12 December 2008 (EST)

wrong ... BoS + three attacks.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 21:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Well, the previous build had the dual Falling attacks crammed into one Trampling, BoS + Impale offers more damage and still gives DW. -- Guild of Deals 21:46, 12 December 2008 (EST)

and the build that i suggest has two kd's and moar damage.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 21:52, 12 December 2008 (EST)

If you're using this chain, Death Blossom would be better, no? ~6 less damage on the single target for some AoE damage and shorter recharge for Palm Strike -> DB combos in between spikes. --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 22:00, 12 December 2008 (EST)

yes, it would .. but we're now talking about two completely different chains. split?--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 22:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Swapping BoS for Death Blossom is a completely different chain? --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 22:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)

no, but the idea of a 3 attack skill spammable chain and a longer kill chain is completely different.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 22:39, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Oh, the double falling chain. Yeah. Splitting that would be good, imo. --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 23:03, 12 December 2008 (EST)

By all means i guess you could do that. there's no reason why you couldn't. but currently this build works fine as is. you can 90% of the time get both falling's in, unless you get hexed with Faintheart which screws over any melee spike. and it allows for pretty versitile and varied timing in your spikes. and twisting fangs is better for Deep Wound than Impale is. To me this seems like pure squabble for the cause of squabble. a person wanting a build under their name and not someone else's.--74.124.198.60 23:09, 12 December 2008 (EST)

But yea, Palm Strike and Death Blossom is and always has been good for doing random chunk damage.--74.124.198.60 23:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)

It's a debate between a stronger spike vs faster recharging spike. --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 23:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)

WOOOOOH...

who the fuck touched the build article...it's terrible now.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:12, 12 December 2008 (EST)

isn't there something about reaching an agreement before changing a voted build...?--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:14, 12 December 2008 (EST)

"from above" >Perhaps we/I should make Dash optional as well in favor for keeping a slot open for either AR or Horns of the Ox...seems pretty reasonable to me.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:23, 12 December 2008 (EST)

It was better than the shitsicle it was before. Only idiots run dual Falling with 1 KD. -- Guild of Deals 23:24, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Lol, BB sin uses two falling attacks and one KD. :> --The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru 23:25, 12 December 2008 (EST)

That's the exception. I meant with a 2 sec KD. BoS deals around +15 damage more and hits twice. -- Guild of Deals 23:26, 12 December 2008 (EST)

And then you toss in Impale for slower spiking. And this preforms fine using 2 Fallings in 1 spike.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:30, 12 December 2008 (EST)

You can kill shit without Impale too. Dual falling is retarted, stop being terrible. I'd rather have my spike recharge 3 seconds slower and get more damage than have it recharge 3 seconds faster and get a significantly less amount of damage. -- Guild of Deals 23:31, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Then use that...? your vote is also obviously a troll vote so please be smart enough to remove it and save admins the time.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:34, 12 December 2008 (EST)

I'm just voting down a build that someone constant reverts to make it bad. Seriously, you're bad at Guild Wars. And that's coming from me. -- Guild of Deals 23:35, 12 December 2008 (EST)

And perhaps since were in a confusing frenzy here, read the build as it is right now. Horns of the Ox is in Optionals, making it Reason's build. As I have said on previous builds, Please read the page before you vote on it.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:37, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Importantly, i cant test the other idea that you are pressing right now. When i get a chance later tonight I will go test it myself and see if there's a notable difference. if there is then I'll re-write the build, or add it as a secondary Variant. Also, being brilliant is not being bad.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:39, 12 December 2008 (EST)

But being bad is being bad. -- Jebus_contests 23:40, 12 December 2008 (EST)

But Bad to the Bone is such a cool song...and this is so bad it's manly, shaves with a rock, and is married to a German beer waitress.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Though i do have to thank who added rush, i was about to add that, so thanks whoever saved me time.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 23:44, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Was me. Critical Defenses left me feeling not so happy. -- Guild of Deals 23:45, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Ok, im settling this by testing on the master of damage. With the knocklock build above and with vamp dags, i did 461 damage over 7 seconds, for 65 DPS. Life 23:53, 12 December 2008 (EST)

With the current build on the page, i did 358 damage over 5 seconds, for 71 DPS. Both of these were done with Flurry. Life 23:55, 12 December 2008 (EST)

And finally, with GOD's build, i did 403 damage over 5 seconds, for 80 damage per second. Once again with flurry and vamps. Life 23:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)

In that case, knocklock > this. http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/any_Falling_Palm_Knocklock 5-5-5 NOW =). Disciple 23:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)

No DW, no IAS.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:04, 13 December 2008 (EST)

counter-intuitively, you will make their health drop further AND faster with the one I posted, AND make them harder to heal.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:05, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Yeah, I know. A few switches with variants (That are already posted) creates the same bar you posted. Disciple 00:13, 13 December 2008 (EST)

making it a dupe ...--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Of? The bar you posted here? The variants were already there before you posted your bar AND before Trampling was switched in for HoTO on this build. Wouldn't that make this the dupe? Disciple 00:16, 13 December 2008 (EST)

no, check timestamps. anyway, there's not point in having two builds that close ... as it is, the one you linked to won't get vetted without IAS and DW, and if you change it to have them, then it's just current variants, (and should be mainbar) on this.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:18, 13 December 2008 (EST)

^ he is the one who called my attention to the buff and the use of trampling ox.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:25, 13 December 2008 (EST)

After Testing BoS + Impale VS Dual Falling VS Dual OX

Using Zealous Daggers and Flurry for testing, and a stopwatch for timing:

• For BoS + Impale: netted a Weaker Spike than Dual Fallings, Killing time averaged 7 seconds, while Dual Falling's Netted 6 Seconds. Dual Fallings also netted more energy post spike, allowing for more Palm Strike and Flurry spamming. On armor 60 targets, the average was incredibly close. on Armor 100 targets, Dual Fallings delivered better results due to it being effected by IAS constantly past Palm Strike.
  • In Conclusion, Dual Fallings killed Faster than BoS + Impale verion.

• For Dual Oxen: Netted the same speed of kills as Dual Fallings and did not need to resort to using Palm Strike after attack skills. except on 100 and 80 armor.
  • In conclusion, Dual Fallings netted the same time and result with less skills consumed on the skill bar.

• In short, if you want a possibly more reliable spike, I suggest using Dual Oxen if you want a more compressed skill bar i suggest using Dual Fallings If you want a 1-2 second slower spike take BoS + Impale

Thus concludes my testing.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)

you may now adjust your vote Guild of Deals.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:28, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I had already done testing with all three -_-. Scroll up lol Life 01:30, 13 December 2008 (EST)

yea, but i actually timed them on the armors.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:45, 13 December 2008 (EST)

and out of the 3, BoS + Impale was the least effective and versatile.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Dual fallings were only slightly slower than Dual Ox, but offered more bar compression.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 01:57, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Added Death Blossom as an optional so people would get off the build's case and stop making builds that are 1 skill different.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 04:20, 13 December 2008 (EST)

And looking at all that testing you failed to realise that with PS -> Trampling -> Falling -> DB you can spike every 8 seconds, bad players are bad. --Frosty 04:23, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Optionals...zzz...utility...zzz...5AM in mourning now...zzz.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 05:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I'm going to be messing with different optionals later so i'll see what can be the most interesting combinations...just for the fuck of it.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 05:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

this is bad

dual falling is pointless, use:

if you just want to zzzspike

or

with Frenzy/Flurry and a utility skill (Disciplined, Sins Remedy, HotO for KDing in the chains downtime etc) if you want to keep a shorter chain 86.143.22.113 06:43, 13 December 2008 (EST)

you can all revote when it has a non-bad chain Tab 07:17, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I was going to do BoS + Impale but got constantly reverted. Smurf wants Reason's chain, so that seems pretty better now. -- Guild of Deals 07:19, 13 December 2008 (EST)

bos/impale works too Tab 07:21, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I was trying to tell this ikimomo guy to look at this Build:A/W Palm Strike Spiker, but well, pvx and stuff... --Frosty 07:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)

okay, we've got a short-chain spammer with DB->Impale, which is sexy. so ... this IMO should be either well-ed, or else take a stronger chain mainbar. I would suggest the one that i have been suggesting. changing mainbar if no objections.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 08:57, 13 December 2008 (EST)

In any case, BoS + Impale did less damage than any of the versions being needlessly argued about when they have already been voted in and people have accepted them.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:50, 13 December 2008 (EST)

well

needs one, it's not as good as the other one 08:21, 13 December 2008

patience young one, it will be.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 08:58, 13 December 2008 (EST)

trial

it's now back in trial with a revamped chain. sufficiently different from the other Palm Striker to merit its own article, dual KD, high damage, ability to resume chain if interrupted, no energy problems, and 15r. discuss.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 10:11, 13 December 2008 (EST)

They won't have gotten up from the first KD in time to use the second. 11:46, 13 December 2008

surprisingly, they will. i know, because i've tested it.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 11:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)

BAR COMPRESSION WAS BETTER WITH DUAL FALLINGS. THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:47, 13 December 2008 (EST)

i have too, and if you have the IAS up and they aren't moving, you'll hit the second KD when they're still on the ground. happens with the shove sin aswell. 11:48, 13 December 2008

shove is three seconds. it works for me :/--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 11:49, 13 December 2008 (EST)

^I ran into this problem in RA as well. Or the classic, counter by having someone back line.--IkimonoI know my Paragons 11:53, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I find this works better without the IAS for knocklocking. Selket Shadowdancer 12:03, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Or, qstep between attacks to turn the kd into a quarterknock and stop using being terrible as an excuse. Hammer warriors take an IAS because it allows you to qknock, taking one on a dagger sin doesn't magically make it impossible to quarterknock. It's a 5 attack skill chain, you will want an IAS. - Misery Is Friendly 12:12, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Double KD Variant

<pvxbig> [build prof=Assassin/Warrior CriticalStrikes=12+1 DaggerMastery=12+1+1][Palm Strike][Flurry][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][Bull's Strike][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

Find a moving target.

Spike Bulls -> 1-5

Dash to kite/catch/run

Rez for fallen allies. This way u practically avoid palms aftercast. Gunnm 12:39, 13 December 2008 (EST)

That is pretty fucking bad. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 12:42, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Agreed.--72.189.85.14 12:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)