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As much as I love Build:A/Mo Death Blossom Farmer, it's just overkill on survivability. Here's a basic moebius sin template. — Skakid9090 18:19, 18 November 2007 (CET)

lolwut?Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 19:21, 18 November 2007 (CET)
YARLY — Skakid9090 19:23, 18 November 2007 (CET)

Think you might need bit better energy management--Godess of Angels 20:02, 18 November 2007 (CET)

Critical strike is more reliable energy, and offers critical hit for more energy & reset of Agility. 70.48.48.90 20:18, 18 November 2007 (CET)

No & no ^^ crit eye + crit agility is great e-management, taking a break to autoattack for 2 seconds is more useful than gibbing your skill bar for crit strike. — Skakid9090 20:20, 18 November 2007 (CET)

I agree with another person here. You need Critical Strike to maintain energy and the enchantments. I think it would totally help this build.

I agree that critical strike is nice because it is also a guarantee to reapply the defense and IAS.

Go use it, and you'll see it has no energy problems since autoattacking for a bit will put you back t full, if you have to over-spam unsuspecting (which you shouldn't in higher-lvl areas). — Skakid9090 05:09, 19 November 2007 (CET)

Plz stop writing builds inferior to existing ones. — Abedeus User Abedeus Sig 14:27, 19 November 2007 (CET)

It has more damage than the A/D, since you're not stopping to cast enchants every 5 secs, you have 14 dagger mastery, you have 600 health, and a res sig. You don't need as much survivability as that build has in a general pve team, it's overkill. — Skakid9090 16:06, 19 November 2007 (CET)
Just take out Mystic Regeneration, throw in Critical Eye/Dash/Death Pact Signet, and you don't have to stop to recast but every 60 seconds. And yes, it does the exact same damage.--Jaigoda 05:50, 4 December 2007 (CET)

I agree.A/D is overkill in protection, and for general PvE thoose enhancments arent really needed.This build has great damage and enough health.Good job.ChaosStein

as for energy problems sins using zealous dagger + crit agility + crit eye = no energy problems (learn2play sin) and any rate .. i agree why write inferiour buil to A/D farmer sin ?? maybe there shoulb be a guide to variants of A/D farmer ... just without D part :) Iwan13talk 19:44, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Farming??

-Couldn't this also be used to farm various bosses using critical defences and some type of small self heal...I used to run this exact build to farm Chkkr the Locust Lord for his pincers and Could this be put into the farming categories? The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.211.229.50 (contribs) .

Look at the first comment on this page. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 22:42, 29 December 2007 (EST)

gotta love critical agility. good build. Trigg3rh4ppy 11:32, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Golden Pheonix Strike

By using this you lose DW, but get an additional optional slot for more utility. Maybe this should be put in variants. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 09:10, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

But you need to reduce the target to below 50% for Moebius to work, would just GPS and DB be enough to get them there? Misery 09:16, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
Well, you use GPS->DB->MS->DB. MS/DB still works when they're >50%. I think it's a decent suggestion. --GoD Sig3GuildofDeals 09:17, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
/agree for variants. With a 2 second recharge on MS and DB it doesn't really matter. - PANIC! Panic sig3 pewpewpew! 09:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
Also don't forget your party members. They might QQ if you do so. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 09:22, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

K, it's in variants. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 09:25, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

If your party QQs about you taking a couple more attacks to get your MSDB spam cranking over at the slightly faster speed, then ragequit and take heroes and henchmen. PUGs are made up of random people for a reason IMO. - PANIC! Panic sig3 pewpewpew! 09:39, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, I never made a PvE sin, so I never MS/DB spammed, but looking at recharges... yes, waiting two seconds is not the end of the world, you can always auto attack for 2 seconds! Objection removed. Misery 09:46, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
It's normally like: MS->DB->MS->auto->DB->MS->auto->DB until Moebius starts triggering. - PANIC! Panic sig3 pewpewpew! 09:59, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
Golden Phoenix Strike Death Blossom Moebius Strike Twisting Fangs Optional Critical Agility Critical Eye Optional

What about this? It hasn't really been mentioned before but it seems the better choice to me? Unsuspecting strike is good but can hardly ever be put to full use (if you're lucky, on your first target, if no one else has targeted it before you get there). The closest targets after that are allready damaged by your own aoe and the rest of the mob is generally allready under 95% health too, because of the rest of your group. So basically, in 90% of the cases, you have to use 5 energy more to do less damage (as golden phoenix strike is dagger mastery and unsuspecting is critical strikes). Even more important than that: this variant allows to pull your DB chain off faster (no need for another offhand) and, if you think it's necessary, allows you to apply a deep wound+bleeding+some damage while DB is recharging (this should generally only be necessary if your target is still above 50% health, in wich case MS doesn't recharge DB instantly) ...Or am I missing something here? --Ki 11:46, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

It's sort of in the variants, but the variants fail to suggest fangs to recover the loss of deep wound. I'll go ahead and add that in. - PANIC! Panic sig4 sexiness! 12:01, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
Wow, someone kind of says I'm right, that's cool XD (and thanx for changing it) --Ki 12:35, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Brawling Headbutt

I think Brawling headbutt should be added to Varients...It kicks the hell out of Club of a Thousand Bears. --71.184.241.155 16:44, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Um, no. Club is recharged by moebius, brawling isn't. - Miserysig1isery -TALK 17:38, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
Brawling is charged within just a couple seconds because of your attack rate. -Mike 17:41, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
Club is charged instantaneously. It's called a knocklock. - Miserysig1isery -TALK 17:55, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
Only if your target is below 50% health, and is non-human. Brawling Headbutt is less conditional, but won't be spammed as often when the conditions would have been met. -Mike 18:24, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
Which sounds viable enough to be added into varients. With the huge Adren this build generates, you can keep someone in a semi-knocklock regardless of their health. I'd rather have tons of knockdowns the whole fight, than a knocklock for half. --72.93.113.113 11:20, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
Uh, you're not gonna knocklock with club anyway, you have to spam DB to recharge Moebius to get club recharged. --MalaMalasigMagebane Shot 16:02, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
You can get a Rit to lay down a spirit of Earthbind. =P It isn't a complete knocklock, but it's still pretty nice. -Mike 16:04, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Hero tag?

As of recent update, heroes can play Moebius builds well (they spam DB and MS often enough and never repeat the original chain). User Nyktos Sig Nyktos (talk · contribs) 16:09, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

They're definitely better at using chains, but still slow at spamming Death Blossom and Moebius Strike. -Mike 16:52, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
Eh, seemed to work well in my (admittedly limited) testing. User Nyktos Sig Nyktos (talk · contribs) 17:57, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
They can use the build, but their DPS will be about 2/3 of a player's. -Mike 17:59, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
You're probably right about that. I just figured it would be nice to have more than one build vetted for sin heroes. User Nyktos Sig Nyktos (talk · contribs) 18:37, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

New Idea

I am pretty much 99% sure that this will not work, but would DB's AoE earn the Assassin adrenaline? If the answer is yes in some miracle, then I say we change one of the slots to "SY!". Someone quick! Shatter my delusions about this dreamy Imbasin.ArisB 19:53, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Nope. The AoE is damage taken, no hitting involved. --71.229 19:56, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
Althought the constant dual attacks might be able to keep it up... Gogey 20:08, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
I think it's a Variant already. --File:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*Wah Wah Wah!* 20:10, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
Didn't check, it is :P Was just looking at recent changes. Gogey 20:10, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
Nightstalker's Insignia? Its basically a contstant +15 armor, at the cost of 40 health, which is pretty good, along with level 10 SS thats +40 armor (Critical Agility) ups --65.102.136.157 03:31, 12 January 2009 (EST)

Few Variants

Ebon Battle Standard of Honor affects DB's AoE, right? At higher levels it adds REALLY good damage. Also use of critical eye is kinda pointless because if you use zealous daggers and run out of energy 1-3 auto attacks give you at least 5 energy. I don't also see Pain Inverter in the variants section. If used propertly it kills enemy AoE casters in seconds. If you don't trust your heroes/party monks to anti-blind you, you could take antidote signet from ranger. Swift 02:45, 18 July 2008 (EDT)

"Save Yourselves!"

What about this skill? You get allot of attacks in, it can be recharged pretty quickly in battle. Ratson Itamar 77.127.137.214 16:05, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

It's in the variants, but isn't necessary if you take an Imbagon or even possible if you use another secondary. ــмıкεнaшк 00:11, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
SY! is obviously the best variant for heroway, but this is a PvE general so it is a variant. --Thc 15:52, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

critical defences over asuran scan?

should we change it around? asuran scan is really optional seeming as you kill really fast without it and if you don't choose to take critical defenses you have no survival skills making you an easy target. --Moosymoose 08:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

No. LifeWikiLOD7 08:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I like killing big bosses in about 5 seconds :> Frostysig9000FrostytheAdmin 08:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Asuran Scan "By Ural's Hammer!" Ebon Battle Standard of Honor Judge's Insight Strength of Honor Unsuspecting Strike Optional Optional

. moo 1 sec kills on bosses. Brandnew 09:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Golden phoenix

Imo Golden Phoenix Strike should be mainbar after August update. The more AoE the merrier.--98.109.81.49 01:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Was never a fan due to the recharge =\. Plus this can be used as a discord trigger as it is. Life Guardian 01:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
It's currently bugged so no. Selket Shadowdancer 01:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
@Life: Moebius should recharge it, if you have a party. @Selket: They should be fixing the bug soon. They introduced tons of bugs with this update.--98.109.81.49 03:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
My problem was that with Golden phoenix and scan, along with a strong hero party, phoenix/Db would kill the target before i got to moebius, leaving me useless for 8 seconds. It's a viable alternative i guess, but not mainbar worthy. Life Guardian 03:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
more golden fang strike--Relyk 03:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

fk they fixed it already lol--Relyk 03:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Upgrading to mainbar?--Ikimono"My beard is thick."Monk-Paragon-icon 03:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Optional. Life Guardian 03:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

<pvxbig> [build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Critical Agility][Golden Phoenix Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Falling Lotus Strike][Brawling Headbutt][Optional][Optional][/build] </pvxbig>

FTW! Selket Shadowdancer 15:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

You're sacrificing Asuran Scan/Save Yourselves for a mediocre KD. Pretty FTL, if you ask me. --JaiGoesMonksassinMonksassin-icon 19:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I heard Imbagons were good, so were optionals. I'm guessing you have never done DoA balanced before either. Devika 08:34, September 4, 2009 (UTC)


"Fall Back!" because walkin sux Flesh Atrophy Epic VQ 21:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Build:A/W PvE Dagger Spammer

^ >>>> this. Archive or downote IMO. --Jaigoda endrant Jaiwritesalot . . . 18:19, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Yup. Why's this still here? Or at least, why's this still in great? -- Jai 04:51, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Also, considering that if things are dying fast enough for an 8s recharge to be too long you should be running the Dagger Spammer, I suggest we mainbar Golden Phoenix Strike. The only time this outdoes the spammer is in long-term DPS (and even then it's a very small difference and the advantage is lost when any buffs are added). -- Jai 14:58, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
So what's the reason the two pages aren't merged? --Jimp WhiteAsIce 06:12, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
This one was around for a long time beforehand (and doesn't use Jagged-Fox in the mainbar). It should probably be archived to reflect the meta-shift, and running Moebius with Jagged-Fox is pointless. ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 06:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The only problem is that a good majority of people in GW still use Moebius. I don't think it would be wise to archive it. I'd say it would be better to get it down into Good and leave it. It's still close to as good as Jagged>FF, and it does bring some extras like stance removal or DW. -- Jai 17:01, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
If you feel it should be in good, make sure your vote reflects that. It currently is a trash-vote, and you aren't actually allowed to lower the numbers just to vote-balance. ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 19:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
or you could update it since you shouldnt be using golden phoenix strike these days--Relyk talk 21:41, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
I don't agree with the rating system, tbh. My rating is based on the actual effectiveness and universality compared to Jagged>FF, not on where it would go with that rating. The build, compared to the optimal Sin build, feels like a 3. I feel it should be in good just because it's the lowest category of builds that isn't deleted. If that doesn't make sense, or you really have a beef with it, I'll change it to 4-4, but that's the honest rating I feel that Moebius deserves at this point.
Relyk, read a couple posts before yours. -- Jai 23:02, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
That's fine then. ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 23:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I run golden fang with moebius strike when i want to dagger spam, otherwise it will be jagged chain. Moebius strike is still useful on the dagger spammer since you have no other useful elites available. This should be archived since "people still use it" isn't a reason not to; see Touch Ranger--Relyk talk 23:48, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Relyk, you're so terrible. First, PvP is different from PvE. Second, Touchers aren't even used anymore, except for RA trolling. And third, by "people still use it" I mean that the majority of sins I see nowadays are still running Moebius. I'd almost consider it common enough to be meta. Also, using Moebius on the dagger spammer is retarded, and is actually going to make it worse. Fox's Promise, WotA, Flashing Blades, even stuff like Assault Enchantments or Locust's Fury is better than Moebius. -- Jai 17:38, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
So you're saying dw is pointless in pve?--Relyk talk 21:43, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
I actually had this discussion a while ago. Honestly, it's decent, but when you're already dealing like 150DPS without it, it's not exactly essential. As a human you can run better stuff, like actual damage. -- Jai 21:53, August 30, 2010 (UTC)


FTW!!!

Wait..

With GPS having an 8 second recharge, and foes exploding in ~2.5 seconds, won't you just be autoattacking most of the time? It seems to be it'd be better to take an off-hand/lead. (Jagged/Fox' ;o) Though that would probably mean this build warrants an archive because that's covered in the General PvE Sin (or something like that.) Brandnew 20:37, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

That was basically my thought. The only time this is useful is when you have stuff that's tough enough to consistantly trigger's Moebius' recharge effect. At that point, it just makes sense to bring GPS. But I don't really think it should be archived, because it's still basically meta in PvE (or as close as you can actually get to meta). With about 90% of sins, if they aren't running a Discord caller, they're running this. IMO, we should just downvote it into good and forget about it. Jai. - 23:09, September 7 2010 (UTC)
Some retard put GPS in there instead of lead+offhand. Running GPS in pve is stupid as hell. Life Guardian 23:12, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
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