Have you tested this Vs. the Dervish Orders hero? and if so how does it compare survivability wise? My concern is less armor, less heals for everyone excluding the hero, and the lack of Elite skill maintainability...DoULoomsignature Dictator of Undeath 03:32, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

I've been testing this build out and it works flawlessly, much better then the Derv Orders. Notorious BW 03:35, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
intresting Concept. mabe mroe enchants for more heals on the ele.--Bluetapeboy 04:09, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
Maintained enchantments maybe? Very, very, very good idea here. --Sageofprofession 04:31, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Just wondering, but why was this never listed under trial builds? --Sageofprofession 04:33, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

No1 added the tag. But I would say derv orders > this. Also nec orders > this. More party heals, more armor, equivalent energy management. For the nec, it has higher atributes, its more flexible (can run /rt and take resto/chan magic, ca run /mo for SoH). Conclusion, this is inferior to other builds alrdy posted.Sebv2727 10:04, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
I put it straight into testing, there's not really a lot to discuss. - AthrunFeya - 12:23, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

To answer concerns about this vs. other orders builds: I'd argue that the self healing and energy management are obviously much better (assuming you maintain 4 enchantments, you have 16e return and an instant ~125hp [you also gain this when using other spells!]). The armor isn't as high but why exactly people are acting as if armor is significant for a role which is essentially a caster I have no idea (at least this one won't be trying to use Dwayna's Touch on your melee chars). True that it doesn't have party healing but it can pack other useful skills along the Erf or Curses line, whichever your team needs most. Also, I don't think the downtime is significant - in 7 seconds the hero would cast orders once, maybe twice - once ER is up again you gain far more energy than you'd ever need. The thing about this build is it has enough self heal to allow the orders to take AtB, which brings the strength of Orders approximately in line with a necromancer doing the same thing (and if you took Cultist's Ferver, Orders and specced out a 3rd attribute for support, you'd still need to find something to combat -17% health sacrifice and bleeding). - AthrunFeya - 12:23, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

very, very, very strong. i think this might hit great.--Bluetapeboy 15:16, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
Why is it that some of my builds are suddenly getting vetted when others are saying my builds suck? --Jimp WhiteAsIce 08:44, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
Hmm? No ones given you feedback on this build (going by the talk page). The W/A we've been over before, ignore Life and Zyke, it's the majority opinion that is the important one. If its any consolation, the reactions to this were mixed at first, despite getting vetted. - AthrunFeya - 11:52, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
imo, this is better than derv orders or nec orders . yes derv orders have party healing and higher armour but this has no energy problems . ward against melee is like similar to aegis which is good for casters who have low AL (i have 5 casters including with spears) . physicals don't really need 25 seconds of aegis (combined with an ER protter) . this also has strip enchant . and with this build, your healer can focus on other people / heroes / hench instead of this hero because he doesn't need to . orders nec on the other hand require enemies to die and there is a limit to how much SR can do . Orders derv's party healing doesn't do much either . i'd rather prot than heal . so my "aegis" is better than party healing . besides, it's usually the casters that require the heals . and since every spell would heal, it doesnt matter how much armour a derv has, this can outheal every damage done to it. don't forget you can get barbs / mop with this build that you can't with an orders derv . an orders nec can't heal itself . there are alot more reasons why this is better than both orders derv and nec . i'm just lazy to list them all lol. correct me if im wrong --Lusciious 14:37, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

this is godly and WAY better than necro orders tbh cause it has orders, self red and blue bard management, and has room for curses! WIN!--Bluetapeboy 20:51, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

It's not a matter of whether or not this is "better" than an Orders Dervish. The two builds have a grand total of two skills shared between them. Yes, both use the same theory: an e-management elite to maintain melee support enchantments, but their purposes beyond that are totally different. An Orders Dervish is primarily melee support combined with a large dose of healing. Yes, Dwayna's Touch is an awful choice for that hero, but then, anyone who actually puts that skill on their hero's mainbar is kinda asking for trouble. This build serves a totally different purpose: additional support skills, primarily hex-based. It's a totally different bag of chips. If you want the extra healing, the Orders Dervish is probably better. If you want hex/ward support, this is better. I don't know why the two are being compared like they're so similar. It's like comparing a MM bomber to this OoU build because both raise minions (in other words, nonsensical). --BuildKitten 18:11, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

removing my vote

I think I've explained pretty exactly what my opinion of this build is. The reasons used where no false reasons or anything. You You removve my vote with the argument: Lau explained on your talk page? He asked me to explain some more, so I did. If you don't agree with me, should you be abusing your "Build-master Power"? Thats pretty lame dude...make up some arguments yourself whne removing my vote.Sebv2727 19:08, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Water Magic?

Deep Freeze and Maelstrom are useful sometimes, and don't need a large investment for their primary effect. Worth adding to the variants? ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 08:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd say yes. --Short 17:52, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
I'd recommend waiting for the update (if it's today). There's a change some of the blood magic utility will need to be mainbar'd. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 19:18, 25 February 2010
^ bloodbond is going right in if so. mark of fury would be used reasonably by heroes too. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly - 19:41, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
Bloodbond is just sick. It heals minions too, so it's all around amazing on this build. I'm using jaundiced with it on my hero, because it helps with the e-management and makes him FC OoP every once in a while, which I think is nice. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 03:08, 26 February 2010

blood bond got updated

^ --Mini Me 18:11, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

We know, that's why it's there. The descriptions we use need to be updated, but that should be done in a couple days (whenever TOR gets around to it). ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 22:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

The overall rating

is atm 4.72, just 0.03 away from great makes people avoid it and don't have it, but maybe cuz its very inferior to D/N order. If so it'd be nice to have a reference to it in the build--37er 19:25, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

oh its alredy mentioned. doh!--37er 19:26, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
Tbh, I think it's better than D/N orders. It's got more utility and it's far easier for heroes to manage the build and the energy. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 19:33, 12 March 2010
amen!--37er 19:41, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

not meta

unless im WAY WAY WAY behind, this is not meta? wut? or am i wrong here?>>Jayson<<< 12:49, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Youre way behind, this outclasses every other orders build out there--GWPirate 13:07, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
but its not meta? right >>Jayson<<< 13:49, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
If you need orders, this is what you take, i guess that makes it meta--GWPirate 14:05, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
It's probably meta on heroes, but definitely not meta on players. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 15:26, 29 April 2010
Not meta for players. And it's a bit arguable that it's even meta for heroes, there are other Orders builds which can do the same job and it's definitely not a compulsory "You Have To Have One" sort of build for heroes. So I just re-removed the meta tag from this build. Stop re-adding it, people. It's not a player meta, and it's got the PvE General tag which means it's for players just as much as for heroes. Ergo, no meta tag for you. BuildKitten 17:35, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
What in the world are you talking about? Orders bars are incredibly common for melee PvE players. It's more than likely meta on heroes, which requires a meta tag.... Karate KJ for sig Jesus 17:59, 29 April 2010
Actually they're less common than you think because of party compression. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly - 19:55, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
It's not a player meta in PvE (I don't know a player who would run this instead of another build except in fairly specific circumstances, and it's likely all of those scenarios occur ONLY in a PUG where the idea is to buff the human-controlled tank). And it's typically used only by melee PvE players (and not even *all* of them, as Athrun said, due to party compression) when H&Hing. It's a total non-essential, it's very clearly helpful but hardly "forced". That, to me, means it's not meta. BuildKitten 22:01, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't run an Orders hero in h/h. With 2 or more players with heroes, an Orders Necro hero would be better anyway because it can carry SoH and condition/hex removal. An ER Orders hero is by no means terrible or unusable, but considering that Orders heroes are lower priority to other builds, it shouldn't be meta.--ArrogantArrogant Bastard SigBastard 07:26, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

If you're putting SoH on your Orders, you probably won't have MoP, Enfeebling Blood and/or Cracked Armor on it. You can put SoH on your MM or your SoS Rit, if you're running them, and in that case, the only difference is that you're moving your secondary support around. Of course, you don't have to run MoP, MMs or SoS, but they're generally very good. ــѕт.мıкε 13:06, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
generally mop on an orders bar is a little underpowered :( you cant abuse it much like you can with ap xD i generally prefer: ap-mop nuker & orders+soh & mm or sos+splinter/rage or cleaner. Just feels more natural set up that way for [b]me[/b] for heavy phys, tho ER orders is almost fool proof for fool AI like the old d/n, tho i see orders as been far from massively used by genpop as most dont use enough phys to make it worthwhile >>Jayson<<< 13:31, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
Of course MoP is better with AP; that doesn't stop people from wanting a copy (or at least Curses) in their team without it (Build:Team_-_2_Man_Physical_Support and Build:Team_-_Physical_Hero_Team, most notably, because those builds have ER Orders). ــѕт.мıкε 14:32, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
Unless you micro the MoP, SoH would perform better far more consistently. Either way, you can always put MoP on an MM, SoS, or bring an AP MoP player.--ArrogantArrogant Bastard SigBastard 18:18, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
The point is, if you're going to run Curses (not on yourself, as a player), you might as well take an ER Orders and put it on him, and put SoH somewhere else (SoS or MM, assuming you take at least one of them). ER makes Orders a little less fragile.ــѕт.мıкε 19:40, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
If you are using h/h, an Orders hero is a lower priority because it is outperformed by other buffs. The cases that you would actually want orders (2+ players), a Orders Necro offers better bar compression (orders + soh + cleaning + res).
You could also bring curses on the Necro instead of SoH, in which case you'd still have the advantage of bar compression via cleaning + res.--ArrogantArrogant Bastard SigBastard 20:04, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Hm, if you want pro bar compression you could take something like:

Optional Order of Pain Blood Bond Mend Body and Soul Spirit Light Protective Was Kaolai Life Signet of Lost Souls

then jagged bomber and SoS rit - both have spare secondaries and atts so can take curses, prot, smiting, etc. btw this is straying from the point of this build majorly... - AthrunFeya Lau bfly - 20:13, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well I'm trying to say that this shouldn't be meta because Orders heroes aren't commonly used compared to others. And when you do use Orders, Necros are almost always better.--ArrogantArrogant Bastard SigBastard 20:19, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

This build is amazing, I wish I could use it more, the possibilities are limitless.

No no, this shouldn't be Meta. An N/ Orders will always be superior unless the healing in your team sucks badly. Necros can handle their energy fine with OoV or CF/OoP+DF; no need to resort to ER in the first place. MinionSplinter WeaponExcluded 22:05, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Can this survive with so many sac skills, when ER is stripped? There is always the ER down times even when it is not stripped. Anyway it works well in NM but not well in heavy degen HM areas. DarkSpirit 18:14, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Um.. the build doesn't rely on health regeneration, so I'm not sure how you figured degen would be a problem specific to this build (maybe your team in general lacks condition removal, hex removal or healing). areas with enchant removal are a problem, but with so many enchantments (orders, aura, awaken, er) in the bar anyway, it's reasonably unlikely ER will be stripped. In the unlikely event it is stripped, healer hench wont let it sac to death either. the downtime isn't a problem as they generally only cast orders once or twice in that window.
could you perhaps reconsider your vote? there's no reason why this build doesnt perform as it was intended to in HM (apart from areas with high enchant removal, so -1 universality for those areas). - AthrunFeya Lau eye 18:52, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
enchantment removal isn't really a problem when the ele has 80+ energy--Relyk talk 19:19, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
It is not the energy that I am worried about. Healer hench is too busy healing the other team members and if ER is down, it is hogging up the healing. The windows for ER down time is longer than you think because the hero AI is too dumb to cast it whenever it renews. Maybe if you micro it, it would not be so bad but micro means extra work. Rating it better to a 3 like the other guy but someone should really try this in heavy degen areas in HM. Spells like Chiblains can remove more than 1 enchantment. I was using this with the Physical Hero Team build by the way. DarkSpirit 19:33, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
its not like you sac half your bar and you still have aor. If its a problem in vqing, since there are a few places with chilblains, you shouldnt be using this--Relyk talk 23:59, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
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