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Discussion

Ok, this is my first build I've posted. So let the flaming begin!! Wtbursanswtsizzy 14:51, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

This build looks like a good build for anyone who needs a good mesmer primary hero interrupter. Energy management, decent synergy, looks good.JORLZ36181 14:49, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Sig of hum over leech signet. Brandnew. 14:53, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

This is a Pve build......um.....SoH does NOTHING in pve. Wtbursanswtsizzy 15:27, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

O lol, sorry. i fail at reading tags. Brandnew. 15:29, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

That's okay lol. I kinda figured that out about five minutes after I posted my response. Wtbursanswtsizzy 20:08, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

After the dozens of helpful,funny, comments I've received I have decided to move this into testing. Wtbursanswtsizzy 14:55, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Never thought I'd see this posted on PvX. lol I personally have been using the build on a hero (before I saw this post =P), but testing with some variants. Heroes seem to use overload only when enemies are casting spells. Yep, it's a decent interrupt build. Phantom89 02:34, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

Well ty very much. Now if I could only get some votes..... Wtbursanswtsizzy 13:09, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

Really good and reliable build. At last for hero mesmer. Art de rue 02:25, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

I like Psychic Instability on a hero, but all those interrupts seem like overkill to me. Signet of disruption is not that great without a hex either. Maybe Backfire/Empathy and some support like Shatter/Remove Hex are worth considering? Drain Enchantment beats Leech Signet as e-management for overall usefulness when this bar is already packed full of interrupts and disruption imo. — Hyperion` // talk 11:13, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Overkill, I don't think so. I mean you are usually fighting between 10-15 enemies at a time in pve in an 8 man area. 5-8 of those are probably casters. I honestly don't see how 6 interrupts is to many....However, if you want to add shatter and drain enchant to variants feel free to do so. :) Wtbursanswtsizzy 17:46, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

I typically use empathy or wastrel's worry as some damage support, and I find it helps well. Also, heroes seem to only use overload when something is casting a spell. I expected it to spam overload the first time I tested the build. Phantom89 01:59, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

overload is kind of ironic on an interrupter imo :P Do they prioritize the interrupt or overload? Cause I rather have another char do damage than having the foe cast its stuff. I have a variant of this in my sandbox that i've been using for quite a while now that I've come very fond of --Sazzy 14:01, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
Overload is on the bar because it has a short recharge and heroes use it well. TBH the interrupts on the bar have between 10-30 sec recharges, so overload is there to add some damage while they are recharging. However, it's not completely necessary, you could thro another interrupt on the bar instead or even better, a utility skill like Drain or Shatter. Or you put in an alternate source of damage such as empathy or backfire...but those are all in the variants. Wtbursanswtsizzy 16:10, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
My Norgu does seem to prioritize Overload over all other interrupts other then the Elite. This might not be a problem in Normal Mode, but I think it's not so great in Hard Mode missions, where some casters can really devastate your party if the interrupter misses a spell. Xilconic 08:42, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

First of all i am glad to see a good pve mesmer hero out there. But i am disappointed that it is an interrupter imo in most pve areas (except for areas where u know u will be encountering heavy spell use i.e. Gate of Pain mission, Charr Homelands)interrupters although useful specially if they interrupt key skills are sort of a waste of a party member, don't get me wrong a bar with 1 or 2 interrupts is great but a hero completely devoted to interrupts sounds like it might severlly reduce ur DPS Leon the Dominator

Lately I've always been taking a complete interrupt bar on gwen with me tbh during vanquish runs. A different one, yes, but that doesn't change the fact it's seriously useful. Don't get me wrong though, in missions like Imperial Sanctum, it's a stupid choice to take, but in general pve, like vanquishing as I said earlier, it srsly comes in handy. There's always multiple spell casters per mob, and making them unable to cast their things makes life a lot easier and vanquishing a little faster. --Sazzy 23:16, 4 July 2008 (EDT)
I see ur point but what is the point of having a party member that deals relatively no damage to interrupt skills if when u run a awesome team like Sabway you can run the enemies over before they even cast. This build im sry to say would prolly epic fail in HM because unless you run Ursanway with this (wats the point if u run Ursanway) your DPS is WAY too low, maybe just maybe if you run the SS from Sabway so u have an extra hero slot but even then not so sure. Maybe move tag to HB (interrupt shutdown with quote heroes "god-like refleces")??Leon the Dominator
err... there's 7 other members in a team perhaps? With 2 monks, there's still 5 members doing good damage. Not every team member has to do damage for it to succeed in HM, even without using noob ursan. One character is seriously not going to make 1000dmg difference. I also never said I'm using this build right here as I'm not particulary fond of every skill choice in there, I'm merely arguing on the fact that a pure interrupter sucks in pve, which imo, does not. Just the other day, I was doing the Fire and Pain quest and I was fucking glad I brought more than 2 interrupting skills with all the mobs of SF ele's there. Also, it's not like a bip or whatever does any damage and yet they're useful party members when used in the right situation, you just have to know when that is. Same goes for a full interrupting mesmer build. The way you're talking, it seems that HM is only doable with 6/7 SF eles and 2/1 monks. What do you think ppl did before sabway and ursanway was out anyway? --Sazzy 14:04, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

Rly...

Sticking 7 or whatever interrupts on a Mesmer does not make a build.--Relyk Purifying Veil SigRELYK ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 03:11, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

^ Change for some other skills tbh. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 08:01, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

Actually, it DOES make a build. And there are 6 interrupts....counting is hard :P. Wtbursanswtsizzy 19:21, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

Still, I mean a hero can be stuck with 2 interrupts and still own relatively well. Here's my take:

<pvxbig> [Psychic Instability][Power Spike][Empathy][Power Drain][Leech Signet][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Flesh of My Flesh] </pvxbig>


--GoD Wario Sig*Wah Wah Wah!* 08:49, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

oooohhhhhhhh.....splinter and ancestor's combinded with fotmf. I like...VARIANTS FTW. Hmmm....i actually like this better than the original bar in some situations.....good support. Empathy definetely needs to go on the main bar signet of disruption maybe? Okay, if you think empathy is not a gud Idea for the main bar just let me know cause i'm changin it. The only thing i'd rather have is cry instead power spike. Splinter+Ancestor's is a gud idea.Wtbursanswtsizzy 19:40, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

nvm somebudy changed it alreadyWtbursanswtsizzy


Attribute Spread

Okay I really like the above bar (with the exception of cry for power spike aoe interrupts ftw) but I want some opinions on the attribute spread. I was thinking 10 dom 10 ins 10 channel 5 fc? I'm gonna put it up and see what everyone thinks. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wtbursanswtsizzy (contribs) .

Needs a vote wipe & revote if the bar changes that drastically. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 20:03, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, ur probably right...how do I do that? Wtbursanswtsizzy 20:43, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

New Changes

The bar now has 4 interrupts 1 damage hex and 2 support skills and a hard rez. This is substantially different from the original build which had six interrupts 1 damage hex and a rez. So how do I do a vote wipe/revote thingy....? Wtbursanswtsizzy 20:45, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Request added, a BM/admin should get on it soon. (for further reference, on the Admin Noticeboard) –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 20:50, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Tyvm. Wtbursanswtsizzy 20:52, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Blackened, enlighten me as to why you sent it back into tested? It's got a voite wipe pending and underwent huge changes. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 20:57, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Didn't read the talk page, and as of right now it's rated Great. So once the vote wipe occurs it will be reset.--Blackened SigBlackened 20:59, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

TBH people its not that big of a change...I replaced 2 interrupts with some rit support skills...yeah it'll be a better build (I think) but just because you are changing to skills doesn't necessarily you are changing a fundamental part of the build. I think that is a common misconception here at the wiki. (not saying I'm not in complete support of a vote wipe 5-5-5s are always gud ;P) Wtbursanswtsizzy 21:05, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

4 skills were changed and a fundamental part of the build WAS changed. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 21:32, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

I need to change the name don't I..... it's not really a Me/Mo anymore more like a Me/RtWtbursanswtsizzy 21:07, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Moved. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 21:32, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Discuss

Plz discuss changes to build here. Ty. Wtbursanswtsizzy 21:47, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Now you see what I meant by overkill ;). This is MUCH better. I put Splinter/A-Rage on practically every caster hero atm, they're just haxx. — Hyperion` // talk 03:35, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
Just changed the attribute spread a little, it was looking a bit unfocused and didn't need all that Inspiration imo, so it gets a bit more damage from Dom and some an extra rank of fast casting. What do you think? Btw keep Empathy in main bar, Backfire is not as good since a lot of the spells will be interrupted and Shatter Hex would only be used in hex-heavy areas. — Hyperion` // talk 03:44, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Empathy

Dunno if this shold be on the main bar....maybe leave the slot open and empathy as a optional?Wtbursanswtsizzy 22:19, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

So you may ask....

Why would I take my awesome great-rated build and change it up enough to have a vote wipe and have it be thrown back into the long process of testing/getting vetted? The answer is: because I believe tht the newbies who come on to this wiki have the right to the best MESMER hero build possible and as such it wud be sefish and stupid to leave signet of disruption and power spike in the build when they were not needed and a-rage +splinter is so much better. Oh and I want a slew of 5-5-5's for this! (disclaimer: this build is obviously not mine its the wikis and other people's input have helped this build alot and jk about the 5-5-5s...I still want them though so if you think it deserves one FEEL FREE to rate it that.)Wtbursanswtsizzy 23:36, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

TBH im sick of every caster bar with splinter + arage automatically getting an awesome rating. 72.177.204.158 09:41, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
They're just that good. — Hyperion` // talk 11:47, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Relyk's Vote

Just one question, have you TESTED the build before voting on it? Besides, while I agree with your point that filling a whole bar with interrupts isn't necessary look at the interrupts on the bar plz. PI interrupts and knocks down, cry is an aoe interrupt, the others are for e-management. My point is the only interrupts on the bar are REALLY good, there aren't excessive interrupts.Besides I don't want to compare builds but the bloody Power Block Hero got better votes than the one you gave mine and all that bar consists of is 7 interrupts and a hard rez. This build is more versatile, more effective, and all around BETTER and you still vote it at an OTHER rating? Plz explain. Wtbursanswtsizzy 15:18, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Also, they're rather useful interrupts. CoF gives AoE damage and interruption, PI gives KD (which can be all-too-useful), P-Drain and Leech are standards. Gives party support, damage, and overall utility. --GoD Wario Sig*Wah Wah Wah!* 15:56, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

power block

gogo — Skakid 16:09, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Power Return over Cry of Frustration and Leech Signet

Monsters have unlimited energy anyway, and this means you'll have room for something else, because this needs less interrupts. ــмıкεнaшк 16:15, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Go make a different build. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 16:22, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
Leech Sig is energy, CoF is just awesome (AoE interruption is awesome). --GoD Wario Sig*Wah Wah Wah!* 16:28, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
I'm sure CoF is great because of the AoE, but it also uses twice as much energy as Leech Signet returns. Plus, we've still got an overkill on interrupts. ــмıкεнaшк 16:30, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
All the interrupts have good utility, and CoF costs 10, Leech Sig returns 10. --GoD Wario Sig*Wah Wah Wah!* 16:35, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
CoF is used twice as often if the hero's using his interrupts on recharge. I also agree with Relyk's vote, as this needs something more than just interrupts and a little bit of Rit support, which is why I'm making a suggestion for bar compression. ــмıкεнaшк 16:43, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

The point mike is to exploit the heroes reflexes for interrupts with utility. If you want to you can add power return to variants. However the main bar, is gud IMO. Yeah leech has a long rech but aoe interrupt ftw. Again, I must reiterate that there are 2 interrupts for utility and 2 for energy management. IF you find your hero has excess supplies of energy without leech (i generally don't) then sure sub power return for it or some other utility like shatter hex, but getting rid of cry is.....not gud. Interrupting ten monsters is gud. Ok? Wtbursanswtsizzy 23:53, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Yeah CoF has to stay in the main bar, but imo Leech should be optional. I'd personally rather run Drain Enchantment in that slot. — Hyperion` // talk 03:02, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

this build

a rage and splinter and some interrupts shouldnt be used all in one build. interrupts can be useful in some places more than others but this shouldnt be a generally used build. put e management interrupts on other heroes - then they can manage energy AND interrupt plenty, saving room for another char to run something else. there are better alternatives. TAKE YOUR PILLS 15:30, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

You are right about one thing interrupts are more useful in some places more than others...however, this build is fantastic at mitigating damage for the party as well as supporting it offensively. If you want to run a different build you can do so......whether you choose to slot a MESMER at all is a totally different argument. No this build isn't sabway, okay. I never claimed it to be but it does what it does very effectively. YOU are arguing against the slotting of a mesmer entirely NOT about the capabilities of the build. You are saying "mesmers aren't needed in pve therefore any interrupts they could provide could be slotted into the secondaries of other professions." You don't have a problem with the build you have a problem with running a mesmer hero at all...that is not a VALID reason to vote a build down. That's like looking at a ranger build with barrage and saying, "well, an ele can do what a barrage ranger does better so THUMBS DOWN." So please revote or I'm gonna have an admin take it down. Wtbursanswtsizzy 00:42, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure a Barrage Ranger or an Ele has nothing to do with this. Stop camping this build. The vote is valid. The build is in "great". Stop whining. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 01:20, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Sorry, I was just annoyed at his vote...especially before it was in great. I'll stop talking now. Wtbursanswtsizzy 11:29, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Optional Elite

for Psychic Instability, Power Block and Power Leech. It's mostly just to include Power Block, too, though. That way, we can delete/merge Build:Me/Mo_Power_Block_Hero. ــмıкεнaшк 23:07, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

No reason to. That build is just bad and useless everywhere. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 23:07, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
We could just copy this build onto that page and change the Elite. XD ــмıкεнaшк 23:10, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
No point. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 23:13, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Areas where you'd actually use this

The only time I've ever needed more interrupts than Tease/Drain/Leech on a resto is Glint HM. This is pure overkill imo, where else can a buttload of interrupts be worth an entire bar? (well, splinter's there as well) PVX-RustyTheMesmer 21:57, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. --Iggy 's other account 01:47, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer Skill Update

[1] Might have to 5-5 this if the updates to Psychic Instability (lolOP, probably won't last), Cry of Frustration and Empathy go through. ــѕт.мıкε 01:09, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Vote cleanup

And back into testing

I say lose the Rit spells, spec 11+1 FC, 8+1 Insp, and 11+1+1 into Dom or Illu, depending on what skills are used. --Jimp WhiteAsIce 08:41, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Since the Rit spells are gone, I think its time to correct the name from Me/Rt to Me/any--Jarad 13:59, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

The breakpoint for Psychic Instability is 12 for 4-second KD, which is why I said 11+1 FC and 11+1+1 Dom/Illu. Also, now that Leech Signet recharges quicker, it's a better option than WNWN. --Jimp WhiteAsIce 17:28, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
i took leech out because im slightly worried with running more and more interrupts heroes wont prioritise using psy instability over something like leech signet (which is obviously bad) 213.229.83.205 17:47, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Dom bar is pretty meh, tbh. Empathy still isn't great, and it's counterproductive with Psychic Instability. The Signets are also meh, without Keystone Signet. Imo, make the dom bar into a hybrid (Me/Rt, Me/Mo, Me/N, etc.) or just put CoF on the Illusion bar (spec might suck, but w/e). Other Dom skills to consider are Chaos Storm (the KDs make it a little more reliable), Complicate (fucks up mobs), Mistrust (damage, although perhaps a little redundant with other interrupts) and Mirror of Disenchantment (you'll rarely make the most of it, but it's a decent Enchantment removal in general). ــѕт.мıкε 21:44, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

don't be bad. sig of weariness is basically the mes equivalent of enfeebling blood - a skill which is pretty much staple in any HM team. Also empathy wouldnt be "counter productive" since this build can't keep things anywhere near perma kd'd, especially if the group splits - it was a good skill before, now it's even better. Chaos storm is dumb, complicate is a waste of time, mirror is terrible and mistrust is optionals-worthy at best. 66.90.104.129 22:10, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Except you can maintain Weakness with Enfeebling Blood, while SoW's will only last 1/3 of the time, so your team will probably take Enfeebling Blood, anyway (either on a Communing Rit or anything speccing for MoP). D-Shot is still used in PvE (Build:R/any_Barrage_Ranger), so I can't see why Complicate shouldn't be. Empathy will only be useful half of the time (the other half, the monster will be KDed), and it's only on one target, anyway. ــѕт.мıкε 22:31, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Also, I already moved this to Me/any Psychic Instability but would Me/any Psychic Instability Hero or Me/any PI Hero be more appropriate? ــѕт.мıкε 22:00, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

No sw/ar makes this pretty bad--Relyk talk 00:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Imo, leave it Me/any for Illusion OR Channeling. Dom is only good for CoF, tbh. ــѕт.мıкε 01:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Also, I think one more rank in FC will reduce the recharge of Psychic Instability by a second (7 seconds instead of 8 seconds). ــѕт.мıкε 01:38, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Let me repeat, without channeling, you have build that does crappy aoe damage and illusion magic sucks with PI, as noted on some other page--Relyk talk 03:41, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Wandering Eye and Clumsiness will deal as much DPS as Splinter Weapon and Ancestors' Rage with reasonable calculations (i.e. Splinter Weapon rarely hitting 3 foes (it requires 4 to get the max), Wandering Eye hitting more foes than the others on average, etc.) ــѕт.мıкε 11:18, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Panic

Is more effective in pve. You should try it, not saying this build isn't effective or anything. It's just funny to see an army of margonites go !! 204.87.204.110 21:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

That's like comparing Dwarven Stability to Earth Shaker; reliable AoE KDs>random AoE interrupts. Panic is also in Dom, which, CoF aside, has little damage compared to Illusion (Wandering Eye, Clumsiness and Signet of Clumsiness). In HM, I don't expect Panic to interrupt much more than attacks, except on huge mobs or mobs with spam-skills like Searing Flames. Psychic Instability also makes it more likely that the mob stays in the same place by the time you use it again. ــѕт.мıкε 21:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
You are underating Panic very much, basically think of it like this, for 9 seconds, only 1 person in the mob can cast at a time. --Frosty Frostcharge 11:25, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Scratch that, not just cast, but use a skill at a time. --Frosty Frostcharge 11:25, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
i think thats a little bit exaggerated. Kd is more awesome--GWPirate 11:58, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Also Panic doesnt kill melee attackers who just autoattack, this can take illusion spells to counter that--GWPirate 13:41, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
Panic is by far better in PvE. If you have a +1+2 Dom, then for 10 seconds mobs can't do.....anything. And with 10 FC, it recharges in ~11 seconds. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 13:59, 25 May 2010
PI is a perfect snare for MoPing, as most mobs, if your team is built around amplifying MoP's damage, will die in ~6 seconds. MinionMinion sig k bishExcluded 15:35, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
both are pretty solid...panic+frustration=damage per attack/skill interrupted? and indeed PI's kd is epic lulz for sitting balls down for spanking.both have good points :D.*edit, thoguth frustration was aoe now..lol oh wells :P still epic shutdownsJaysonMaxxFury 15:48, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
True, I guess it depends on what you're doing. But, in PvE, I'd much rather have a mob unable to do shit for 10 seconds (helping us wipe it in like ~3 seconds) rather than KD'ing and having to clean up. But that's me. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 16:51, 25 May 2010
I'd agree since panic has such a large range. PI is slightly better in smaller groups where there isn't much overlap and a mix of casters and melee. Saying that, pi is pretty niche use compared to panic--Relyk talk 05:25, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
Well, PI is cool and stuff, cause 4s kd is better than constant rupts imo. The problem is, heroes don't abuse PI and keep casting useless single rupts. If they sticked to casting PI over and over, that would be grat. But as it is, Panic is better. Kravcio 23:11, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Signet of Weariness

Not worthy of mainbar imo. Take EB if you want weakness; it's better even with a small attribute investment. Dok 19:38, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Vote Wiped

Due to the overhaul. --Frosty Frostcharge 23:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

PI is a ranged Earth Shaker. Shit's insane. RickyRicksawsmfacevantof 14:08, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Too bad earth shaker sucks in pve. ooooooooooooooooo 75.142.10.108 09:47, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
It does now, it was the fucking shit back in the day. RickyRicksawsmfacevantof 12:50, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
Too bad PI is actually a ranged AoE backbreaker--GWPirate 22:12, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
Too bad PI is actually a ranged backbreaker with a bigger AoE than earthshaker, a 0.1 or whatever second cast time, a 7-8 second recharge and can be used with either illusion or domination.--Oskar 20:48, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
too bad the bar sucks since there's no splinter weapon ^^--Relyk talk 23:49, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
Tbh, you could take any attribute line with PI and it wouldn't matter. You only need two heroes at most with SW anyway. ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 00:22, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
gonna update this when i have time to make it something like on toraen's page with WNWN and drain enchant. AthrunAthrun dotFeya 00:26, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
illusion magic is better than dom, spamming wandering eye>dom magic. and pdrain so you have interrupt. you bring sw on this because its cheap utility and hero can afford it--Relyk talk 02:38, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
actually, you're very wrong. clumsiness and wandering eye tend to not do much when foes are on their arses for 4secs at a time. AthrunAthrun dotFeya 04:55, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
For that matter, PI lacks synergy with most commonly used Mesmer skills (punishments like Empathy and other interrupts). Chaos Storm, Wastrel's Worry and WNWN are some that would work though. ToraenTheJanitorToraenSig2 05:07, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
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