Talk: P/W Imbagon

Latest revision as of 22:09, 11 October 2010

Weapon Suggestion

The equipment for this indicates a zealous, vampiric, or sundering spear tip. It seems to me that the build centers around SY, which is adrenaline based. Shouldnt the suggested tip then be furious instead to increase the use of SY? --Ascalon Destroyer 18:21, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

The assumption is that you're running this with an orders derv (or whatever's hip that includes dark fury) so that you're charging SY in two attacks, so it's not needed. Instead, more damage or energy management is good, depending on your variant of the build. — Maf so rational. 22:58, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Tbh I think energy isn't a problem, and since you usually don't want elemental mods(for barbs,OoP, etc.) your best off going with vamp for extra damage Sharky_talk 23:06, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, it depends what you're taking in the optionals. More energy-heavy things need more energy management. But do what you like. — Maf so rational. 04:37, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

I can think of a few variants that would want a zealous mod, but I think (though I don't have the math to back it up) that +3 (unmitigatable) damage per attack generally outdoes the increased damage from using your attack skills a bit more often.

That said, damage isn't the main focus of this character, so use what you have readily available. -- Armond Warblade

{{Bacon}} 03:33, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

If the assumption is that you are charging SY in 2 hits, you might as well remove zealous suggestion, because you really don't need more than 3 energy per hit (6 from leadership every 2 hits). Vampiric, sundering, heavy (if taking AoR) or cruel (when taking some form of DW like FTW!) are then far better options. 21:06, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why Anthems?

TNTF is all you need to maintain AR. Why would anyone need an anthem? Especially if it means stopping your running every time you need to recast.

TNTF's recharge makes it annoying to use to maintain AR because it requires paying attention.

Beyond that, in a team with large numbers of physicals, AoF provides a bunch of damage and AoW provides fuel for Stunning Strike, etc, in addition to being weakness, which is powerful in and of itself.

-- Armond Warblade

{{Bacon}} 23:14, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

This build needs to be revisited.

I recently started using this build on my paragon, and I don't know what it is, but it just seems to not be working correctly. Agressive refrain does not stay on, energy management sucks because there is none, damage is pretty bad (I know it's not intended to be doing huge amounts of damage, but people expect other players to mostly damage unless they are healers/etc.), and personally I don't like TNTF or SY, they just don't seem all that great. Just my two cents. --Comander Guardian 22:00, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

you're suppose to use it with an orders necro generally. you can maintain AR with tn2f, but if you have trouble, bring anthem of flame. also tntf and sy probably dont seem amazing if you're not doing hm areas where enemies hit 100s and nuke the whole party--Relyk _talk 22:17, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

FYI for every 40 amour points reduces damage by half. SY rocks---XTREME 22:43, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

This build is perfectly viable without an orders character. This build has great energy-management (6 free energy from SY every few seconds). AR is easy to keep up with TNTF and/or an Anthem. 18:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Some changes?

Point 1: Flurry is always better than aggression. It says in optionals that it can replace aggression but not suggested for beginning paragons. 1st, wiki is supposed to store optimal builds, no? 2nd, how is it hard at all to use flurry? 3rd, faster ims is better obviously and not being squishy when you are the only player not buffed with save yourselves is ideal. Point 2: The damage provided by this build is very subpar, it is much more of a defensive build than a damage build, so why is spear mastery the highest attribute at 13? Imo lower it to 9 and bring leadership to 14, better e-management and longer lasting "There's nothing to fear!" Point 3: Fall back should definitely be an optional, is great for any team no using cons. Smity 21:15, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

flurry is a waste of energy, flurry is a waste of energy, and paragons aren't squishie
atleast you're doing some damage, you don't need more energy, and 1 second longer isn't significant
look in variants and stop being an autist

--Relyk _talk 22:03, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Agressive refrain -20 armor makes para's alot more squishy. I guess I am not seeing any reason to ever use aggressive refrain.. Even with flurry's damage reduction, it probably does more damage because of damage buffs like orders, EBSoH, barbs, MoP, etc. Smity 22:13, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Also, you say "flurry is a waste of energy" and "you don't need more energy" in the same breath. Smity 22:43, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

let me rephrase it in a way that you won't take out of context: you dont need more energy from using shouts--Relyk _talk 22:45, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

One second longer "There's nothing to fear!" is nice, and the extra energy from shouts helps if you think that flurry is such a drain on energy. Flurry is clearly superior, if it wasn't why does the build page say that flurry is for experienced paras? My whole point is that flurry should be main barred and aggressive should go to optionals for "inexperienced paras". Smity 22:50, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Because an anon put it there. believe it or not, spears actually do damage! what you sacrifice to deal some damage is really insignificant if ever you used the build.--Relyk _talk 23:11, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

To quote Racthoh, "WHEN I CAN'T SY WAND DPS MAKES ME WIPE!".

You're way too concerned about survivability. An imbagon with Aggressive up has (80 base + 16 shield + 10 insignia - 20 AR = ) 86 AL and ~600 HP. It's not like you're going to fall over in two seconds. If you're in hard mode and things are hitting you for a lot of damage, get your monk to put pretty much any prot on you.

1s longer TNTF isn't worth decreased tab-space damage unless your team can't keep you up anyway (in which case you should probably bring a healer who knows how to push buttons). Flurry is weak because it decreases your damage dealt and drains a billion energy per second (which you should be spending on attack skills/ward honor/etc).

Way too many people underestimate spear DPS. This is a build that provides enough defense to justify bringing only one healer for a lot of areas; increasing the duration of TNTF by one second isn't going to mean you can drop that healer. Since you can still tab around and do reasonably ridiculous damage (at range, no less!), there's no point in not building for such. Granted, it's not going to do much against 360AL targets, but again, the extra second of TNTF isn't going to help much there anyway, so you've got nothing to lose (and you should be using a specific team build for those kinds of areas, not this build).

-- Armond Warblade

{{Bacon}} 18:20, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I removed the note stating Flurry should only be brought with GFTE due to energy management. Flurry + SY = +2 net energy gain every 5 seconds... I realize that math is hard, and also that those of you using the imbagon for his EPIC SPEAR DAMAGE might skimp on the SY spamming, but I've never had energy trouble bringing flurry, and that means you shouldn't either.67.182.24.195 16:59, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

flurry should really be main bar... skakid9090 00:01, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

"For Great Justice!"

Do you really need that on the mainbar? I seem to get away without the permanent adrenaline boost with furious spear & timing Sy to be charged just as Focused ends..

Occasionally I swap vicious attack & GFTE! for Fall Back & something helpful for HM. [ I use sweets as the IAS since AR has always seemed a bit clunky to use. --Chieftain Alex 23:18, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

SYG doesnt do anything with SY up and most don't want to blow sweets for casual pve. Life Guardian 23:23, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

You say you don't need FGJ because you can time furious spear to be able to cover the gap. Then you show us your build which doesn't have FGJ or furious.. 15:35, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Well I posted it quite late at night :) plus I usually use a P/W build with cyclone axe. pew pew para with axe <3 --Chieftain Alex 22:09, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 {{Archives|
-[[Build_talk:P/W_Focused_PvE_Paragon/Archive_1|1]]
+[[Build_talk:P/W_Imbagon/Archive_1|1]]
-[[Build talk:P/W Focused PvE Paragon/Archive 2|2]] }}
+[[Build talk:P/W Imbagon/Archive 2|2]]
+[[Build talk:P/W Imbagon/Archive 3|3]] }}
 __TOC__
+== Weapon Suggestion ==
-*i did a bit of cleaning, hope you dont mind :D [[User:Stefyvolt|Stefyvolt]] 04:33, 20 December 2008 (EST)
+The equipment for this indicates a zealous, vampiric, or sundering spear tip. It seems to me that the build centers around SY, which is adrenaline based. Shouldnt the suggested tip then be furious instead to increase the use of SY? --[[User:Ascalon Destroyer|Ascalon Destroyer]] 18:21, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
+:The assumption is that you're running this with an orders derv (or whatever's hip that includes dark fury) so that you're charging SY in two attacks, so it's not needed.  Instead, more damage or energy management is good, depending on your variant of the build. &mdash; [[User:Mafaraxas|Maf so rational.]] 22:58, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
+::Tbh I think energy isn't a problem, and since you usually don't want elemental mods(for barbs,OoP, etc.) your best off going with vamp for extra damage [[user:Giantshark|<font color="lightblue">'''Sharky'''</font>]][[User talk:Giantshark|<font color="red"><sub>talk</sub></font>]] 23:06, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
+:::I don't know, it depends what you're taking in the optionals.  More energy-heavy things need more energy management.  But do what you like. &mdash; [[User:Mafaraxas|Maf so rational.]] 04:37, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
+::::I can think of a few variants that would want a zealous mod, but I think (though I don't have the math to back it up) that +3 (unmitigatable) damage per attack generally outdoes the increased damage from using your attack skills a bit more often.
+::::That said, damage isn't the main focus of this character, so use what you have readily available. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 03:33, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
+::If the assumption is that you are charging SY in 2 hits, you might as well remove zealous suggestion, because you really don't need more than 3 energy per hit (6 from leadership every 2 hits). Vampiric, sundering, [[gww:Heavy|heavy]] (if taking [[gww:Anthem of Weariness|AoR]]) or [[gww:Cruel|cruel]] (when taking some form of [[gww:Deep Wound|DW]] like [[gww:Find Their Weakness|FTW!]]) are then far better options. 21:06, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
-== Meaningless edit warring ==
+== Why Anthems? ==
+TNTF is all you need to maintain AR.  Why would anyone need an anthem?  Especially if it means stopping your running every time you need to recast.
+:TNTF's recharge makes it annoying to use to maintain AR because it requires paying attention.
-If you're going to change the main bar, you need to change the rest of the page as well. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 10:26, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+:Beyond that, in a team with large numbers of physicals, AoF provides a bunch of damage and AoW provides fuel for Stunning Strike, etc, in addition to being weakness, which is powerful in and of itself.
-:Sorry for that, I had very little time to edit this last time. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 10:57, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+:-- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 23:14, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
-::Then don't. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 10:58, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-:::I added "known as imbagon" =D--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 11:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-::::Already in build description, nooblet. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 11:06, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::Derrr it wasn't at the top, which is why i added it QQ--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 11:07, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+== This build needs to be revisited. ==
-== Changes/Updates. ==
+I recently started using this build on my paragon, and I don't know what it is, but it just seems to not be working correctly. Agressive refrain does not stay on, energy management sucks because there is none, damage is pretty bad (I know it's not intended to be doing huge amounts of damage, but people expect other players to mostly damage unless they are healers/etc.), and personally I don't like TNTF or SY, they just don't seem all that great. Just my two cents. --[[User:Comander Guardian|Comander Guardian]] 22:00, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
-Updated/Improved build content. There is little need in AoF and GfTE in non-physical based party which is very common and even in that case those skills are carried around by another character or have minor importance at all. You primary goal with this build is maximum ability to mantain SY at all time.  FGJ allows you to have constant stream of increased adrenalline which leads to better job done and great energy management as well. With more powerfully specced two attacks you have higher dps. Command attribute was lowered to 7 to meet the requrement of shield.
+:you're suppose to use it with an orders necro generally. you can maintain AR with tn2f, but if you have trouble, bring anthem of flame. also tntf and sy probably dont seem amazing if you're not doing hm areas where enemies hit 100s and nuke the whole party--[[User:Relyk|<font color="darkblue">'''Relyk'''</font>]] [[User talk:Relyk|<font color="blue"><sub>talk</sub></font>]] 22:17, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
-Equipment was updated. Added larger variety of insignia and rune choices, added mention of very important +1+3 leadership headpiece and rune of clarity. r7 shield was added. Larger variety of spears was added. High energy staff for AR was added. -20% shield mod was added, very important against low duration blinds.
+::FYI for every 40 amour points reduces damage by half.  SY rocks---[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|<font color="#0000ff"><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua;">'''X'''</span></font>]]<font color="#696969"><small>TREME</small></font> 22:43, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
-You are probably going to revert it because of lack of talk page drama, game knowledge/expirience and your general lack of common sense or more harshely said autism but I ensist. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 11:06, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+:::This build is perfectly viable without an orders character. This build has great energy-management (6 free energy from SY every few seconds). AR is easy to keep up with TNTF and/or an Anthem. 18:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
-:I don't have an r7 15 AL Shield, and don't feel like buying one like 80% of the pvxwiki users, tbh. Yes, we generally expect the best from equipment like a Rune of Superior Vigor, but low req weapons are less common and more expensive. Also, anyone that does buy an r7 15 AL Shield will probably use Orders, so Spear of Lightning won't be a great attack skill because of the damage type conversion. The bar does look better, though, tbh, but Spear of Lightning should be dropped and the r7 Shield is asking too much, imo. [[User:St. Michael|<font color="maroon">'''ــмıкε'''</font>]][[User_talk:St. Michael|<font color="orange">'''нaшк'''</font>]] 11:08, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-::lol ur funny anonimous, those are all variant skills, u need anthem of flame on main bar so nubs can keep up aggressive refrain--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 11:10, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-:::To Mike:
-:::If, 80% of pvxwiki cant afford r7 15AL shield (which is not expensive at all) doesnt mean that rest of gw community should. r7 15AL is the ideal equipment for this build, articles need to be kept to high standard. I will mention what to do if you dont have the shield in note section.
-:::Good player would run Swift Jevelin in case of running with and orders hero or aegis chain. That is no rul;e though so generally SoL is better. I think of adding an optional slot of both though.
-:::To Relyk:
-:::You dont need to mantain AR outside of battle  if the running time exceeds ~40-60 seconds. You can mantain it using +1+3 leadership headpiece and FGJ/Tntf very well if you want to as well as not losing ammount of dps. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 11:43, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+== Some changes? ==
-I'm glad someone finally had the balls to change this.  The previous version was lolworthy.  AoF, GftE... anyone who thinks those are good skills on an imbagon does not play one.  Anyway, may I suggest "Fall Back" as an optional. I realize it doesn't help combat-wise, but it makes keeping up AR ridiculously easy, and you almost never have to wait around for TNtF to recharge.  Also, zoom zoom in PvE is ftw.  --[[User:Thc|Thc]] 12:00, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+Point 1: Flurry is always better than aggression.  It says in optionals that it can replace aggression but not suggested for beginning paragons.  1st, wiki is supposed to store optimal builds, no? 2nd, how is it hard at all to use flurry?  3rd, faster ims is better obviously and not being squishy when you are the only player not buffed with save yourselves is ideal.
-:Would not run Fall Back myself but it is worthy of optional section. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 12:08, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+Point 2: The damage provided by this build is very subpar, it is much more of a defensive build than a damage build, so why is spear mastery the highest attribute at 13?  Imo lower it to 9 and bring leadership to 14, better e-management and longer lasting "There's nothing to fear!"
-::can i ask, why even bother having points in command? you've dropped "GFtE!", so you're bar doesn't make use of command at all, other than the shield. Tbh it would make mroe sense to drop your points into leadership, and just wing it with a shield. <span style="font-family: comic sans ms; font-size: 10pt;">'''[[User:Phenaxkian|<font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian</font>]]</span> <span style="font-size: 8pt;">[[User talk:Phenaxkian|<font color="#9400D3">Sysop</font>]]</span>''' 12:17, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+Point 3:  Fall back should definitely be an optional, is great for any team no using cons. Smity 21:15, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
-:::15AL shield makes quite a difference from 0 spec shield. Having one more point in spear mastery is more important than having one less AL in your shield. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 12:25, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+:# flurry is a waste of energy, flurry is a waste of energy, and paragons aren't squishie
+:# atleast you're doing some damage, you don't need more energy, and 1 second longer isn't significant
+:# look in variants and stop being an autist
+:--[[User:Relyk|<font color="darkblue">'''Relyk'''</font>]] [[User talk:Relyk|<font color="blue"><sub>talk</sub></font>]] 22:03, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
+::Agressive refrain -20 armor makes para's alot more squishy.  I guess I am not seeing any reason to ever use aggressive refrain..  Even with flurry's damage reduction, it probably does more damage because of damage buffs like orders, EBSoH, barbs, MoP, etc.  Smity 22:13, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
+:::Also, you say "flurry is a waste of energy" and "you don't need more energy" in the same breath. Smity 22:43, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
+::::let me rephrase it in a way that you won't take out of context: you dont need more energy from using shouts--[[User:Relyk|<font color="darkblue">'''Relyk'''</font>]] [[User talk:Relyk|<font color="blue"><sub>talk</sub></font>]] 22:45, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::One second longer "There's nothing to fear!" is nice, and the extra energy from shouts helps if you think that flurry is such a drain on energy.  Flurry is clearly superior, if it wasn't why does the build page say that flurry is for experienced paras?   My whole point is that flurry should be main barred and aggressive should go to optionals for "inexperienced paras". Smity 22:50, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::Because an anon put it there. believe it or not, spears actually do damage! what you sacrifice to deal some damage is really insignificant if ever you used the build.--[[User:Relyk|<font color="darkblue">'''Relyk'''</font>]] [[User talk:Relyk|<font color="blue"><sub>talk</sub></font>]] 23:11, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::To quote Racthoh, "WHEN I CAN'T SY WAND DPS MAKES ME WIPE!".
+:::::::You're way too concerned about survivability. An imbagon with Aggressive up has (80 base + 16 shield + 10 insignia - 20 AR = ) 86 AL and ~600 HP. It's not like you're going to fall over in two seconds. If you're in hard mode and things are hitting you for a lot of damage, get your monk to put pretty much any prot on you.
+:::::::1s longer TNTF isn't worth decreased tab-space damage unless your team can't keep you up anyway (in which case you should probably bring a healer who knows how to push buttons). Flurry is weak because it decreases your damage dealt and drains a billion energy per second (which you should be spending on attack skills/ward honor/etc).
+:::::::Way too many people underestimate spear DPS. This is a build that provides enough defense to justify bringing only one healer for a lot of areas; increasing the duration of TNTF by one second isn't going to mean you can drop that healer. Since you can still tab around and do reasonably ridiculous damage (at range, no less!), there's no point in not building for such. Granted, it's not going to do much against 360AL targets, but again, the extra second of TNTF isn't going to help much there anyway, so you've got nothing to lose (and you should be using a specific team build for those kinds of areas, not this build).
+:::::::-- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 18:20, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
+I removed the note stating Flurry should only be brought with GFTE due to energy management. Flurry + SY = +2 net energy gain every 5 seconds... I realize that math is hard, and also that those of you using the imbagon for his EPIC SPEAR DAMAGE might skimp on the SY spamming, but I've never had energy trouble bringing flurry, and that means you shouldn't either.[[Special:Contributions/67.182.24.195|67.182.24.195]] 16:59, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
+flurry should really be main bar... [[User:Skakid9090|skakid9090]] 00:01, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
-Would taking a furious spear help here (adrenaline is capped, then doubled) or not (adrenaline is doubled, then capped)?  Or is more adrenaline even needed?--[[Special:Contributions/65.114.60.147|65.114.60.147]] 07:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
-:If you have an orders derv, it's not needed.  As far as the mechanics, i don't know. --[[User:Mafaraxas|Mafaraxas]] 07:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
-:Adrenaline is capped at 200% (or +100%) of the normal gain, and Focused Anger might say higher than +100%, but even that is capped. [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 14:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
+=="For Great Justice!"==
-::I'm pretty sure that with Dark Fury and FA up, if furious procs, you will gain 8 adren in one whack. However, if you have both Dark Fury and FA, there's no real point to having a furious spear. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small>{&#123;[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 21:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
+Do you really need that on the mainbar? I seem to get away without the permanent adrenaline boost with furious spear & timing Sy to be charged just as Focused ends..
+{{mini skill bar|Vicious Attack|"Go for the Eyes!"|Focused Anger|Ebon Battle Standard of Honor|"Save Yourselves!"|"Stand Your Ground!"|"There's Nothing to Fear!"|"We Shall Return!"}}
-== Revert war ==
+Occasionally I swap vicious attack & GFTE! for Fall Back & something helpful for HM. [ I use sweets as the IAS since AR has always seemed a bit clunky to use. --[[User:Chieftain Alex|Chieftain Alex]] 23:18, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
+:SYG doesnt do anything with SY up and most don't want to blow sweets for casual pve. <span style="font-family:fantasy;border-top:3px dotted #AAAA99;">[[User:Life Guardian|<span style="color:#AAAAAA;">Life</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Life Guardian|<span style="color:#006699;">Guardian</span>]]</span> 23:23, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
-Do let's ^^ <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 11:10, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+::You say you don't need FGJ because you can time furious spear to be able to cover the gap. Then you show us your build which doesn't have FGJ or furious.. 15:35, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
-:go ananimous go!--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 11:12, 5 December 2008 (EST)
+:::Well I posted it quite late at night :) plus I usually use a P/W build with cyclone axe. pew pew para with axe <3 --[[User:Chieftain Alex|Chieftain]] [[User talk:Chieftain Alex|Alex]] 22:09, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
-::(EC) XD Before we get into a million edits and reverts, we should probably come to a consensus for the main bar. I usually run:
-{{mini skill bar|Vicious Attack|optional|"Save Yourselves!"|"There's Nothing to Fear!"|Ebon Battle Standard of Honor|Focused Anger|"For Great Justice!"|Aggressive Refrain}}
-::[[User:St. Michael|<font color="maroon">'''ــмıкε'''</font>]][[User_talk:St. Michael|<font color="orange">'''нaшк'''</font>]] 11:13, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-You can take a res for that matter. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 11:14, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-:SHUT UP RES ARE FOR THE WEAK! --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 12:28, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-::yeah you could, but really, you're playing an imbagon. if you wind up being the last man standing, then /ragequit.--[[User:reason.decrystallized|'''<font color="blue">reason</font>''']]'''<font color="black">.</font>'''[[user_talk:reason.decrystallized|'''<font color="blue">decrystallized</font>''']]  <small>''<font color="red">I frenzy-healsig.</font>''</small> 12:36, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-{{mini skill bar|Vicious Attack|Spear of Fury|"Save Yourselves!"|"There's Nothing to Fear!"|Focused Anger|"For Great Justice!"|"Fall Back!"|Aggressive Refrain}}
-Basically because i cba to go through eotn again.  Usually take a Charge warrior, too. --[[User:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">Mafaraxas</font>]] <small>([[User_talk:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</small> 22:39, 5 December 2008 (EST)
-== Vicious Attack ==
-Blows a lot of chunks without GftE. Swap it out for merciless tbh. -[[User:Auron|<font color="black">Auron</font>]] 05:09, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:or since you're probably already going to have lots of deep wound in the common meta, and Merciless spear is a giant tub of ass on paragon primaries, use Spear of Fury. Highest damage spear attack in the game, nets you adrenaline, quick casting speed.--[[User:72.189.85.14|72.189.85.14]] 05:14, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::And sacrifices ebon standard, which makes the skill's bonus damage look like a joke. Oh, and you'd still have a slot, since you had to dump the best skill on the bar for a subpar pve skill. Really not a smart idea. -[[User:Auron|<font color="black">Auron</font>]] 05:21, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:::Meh mostly just to spam attacks, its interchangeable, but most people use gfte anyways--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 05:29, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::Why we're dropping Anthem of Flame or Weariness I don't know, it's a hell of a lot more useful for keeping up AR outside of battle then wasting TNtF on it. And bring Spear of Lightning or Swift Javelin over Vicious. As Auron said, it blows big chunks without GftE--{{user:Guild of Deals/signature}} 07:14, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::To Auron:
-::::Your coment shows exactly how bad pvfail is.
-::::On blank piece of paper you look at vicious attack with gtfe! IT GIVES YOU ALMOST CERTAIN CHANCE TO APPLY DEEP WOUND WOW AMAZING!!!!!! That was on piece of blank paper, you fail to see costs of having it on actual build. To have that combo on this build means drop skill that can apply 80-100 damage you can use again to have higher chance to deal 100 damage that you can benefit from only once. That is having less DPS and adrenalline sink against having higher DPS and obviously winning the game.
-::::You may argue that GftE! is energy management but I crush that argument right away. SY! is being charged in 3-4 spear hits providing you with steady stream of energy with high ranks in leadership. What GtfE! would only do is take away adrenalline lowering your SY! spam efficiency. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 12:35, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::This isn't tagged as a team build. Feel free to add a comment that GftE is required on another member of the team. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 12:41, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::It is not required in general. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 12:53, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::You do not want to take GftE, especially in areas with lots of blocking.  Theorycraft is nice (lol charge in 2 hits so EZ), but that's not always the case.  Some mobs have Aegis and Dark Fury is NOT up all the time.  GftE is the last thing you'd want on your bar.  --[[User:67.49.147.14|67.49.147.14]] 20:54, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-== For idiots who revert 7 command ==
-Understand that you are not good enough to afford req 7 15AL, doesnt mean you should keep article in poor state for Guild Wars community to laugh. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 13:16, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:More people have req9 shields dude...--[[Image:Altruismliger.jpg|19px]] [[User:Liger414|<font color="Bronze"><b>Liger414</b></font>]] [[User_talk:Liger414|<font color="gold"><b>talk</b></font>]] 13:18, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::people =/= good people. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 13:19, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:::So pvxwiki is aiming at the top 10% of pve'ers who probably never look at this site anyway cause its terrible, get a grip. --[[User:Frosty|<font color="Black">F<small>'''rosty''']]</small></font> 13:20, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::But PvX = Elitest no? So he actually makes a fair point. [[User:Brandnew|<font color="deeppink"><b>Brandnew.</b></font>]] 13:21, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-I find it funny that people see PvX as some sort of dictatorship: "What this build says is how everybody must run it!" The attributes, like many many other things, considering this build, are interchangable and have a high amount of variants. Stop acting like builds on PvX (as written down, not considering variants) are the only way a build can be ran. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 13:21, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:{{ec|4}}look, we do say you should expect people to have all skilsl and runes and everything available, it doesn't mean everyone's made of money, we don't make unreasonable suggestions. Saying to take a Q7 15AL shield, over a Q9 shield, is unreasonable. Your sacrificing a shit load of money for about 3 extra damage...<span style="font-family: comic sans ms; font-size: 10pt;">'''[[User:Phenaxkian|<font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian</font>]]</span> <span style="font-size: 8pt;">[[User talk:Phenaxkian|<font color="#9400D3">Sysop</font>]]</span>''' 13:22, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-People who actually got a rq7 Shield won't look  on PvX anyway... And if they do they're not going to run 9 command if they know they got a rq 7 shield. I hope that made sense. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 13:24, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:I'll compromise here, we'll change to back to command 9, and put a Q9 shield, but in notes, we'll say if you can afford a q7 shield, then you can drop command to 7 (6+1), and put an extra point into spear mastery. But seriously, it's one fucking damage... <span style="font-family: comic sans ms; font-size: 10pt;">'''[[User:Phenaxkian|<font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian</font>]]</span> <span style="font-size: 8pt;">[[User talk:Phenaxkian|<font color="#9400D3">Sysop</font>]]</span>''' 13:27, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::And it's not like an imbagons run for it'z amazing damage output. --[[User:Frosty|<font color="Black">F<small>'''rosty''']]</small></font> 13:28, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:::Maybe, people who have q7 wont look here but good articles showing optimum equipment and precise usage would definetely improve upon site's poor reputation. This too encourages new players to aim for higher standards.
-:::Just if you are not good enough to have this shield and dont want to get better does not mean you should have poor articles, that was aimed at everyone.
-:::To Phenaxkian in particular:
-:::In my opinion locking the page was just faggotry. Thats not only because of equipment but guide in general which I still wanted to alter little. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 14:05, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::For fuck's sake, it's not "AnonimousWiki" it's PvXwiki. Not everything is up to you. And you brought this on yourself by constantly thinking you're right and everyone else is wrong. Get a grip on reality and stop acting like you're good. --{{user:Guild of Deals/signature}} 14:09, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::Indeed. I'm constantly right and everyone else (you in the first place) is wrong. --[[User:Anonimous.|Anonimous.]] 14:16, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::I sure do hope you can sleep tonight, Anon :( <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 14:17, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-Hey fuckers, Shut the hell up. Its PvE, most people only have r9 command shields, no one is going to get a 7 command shield for shitter PvE, quit bitching, it doesnt matter.----[[User:Shadowsin|<font color="black">ﮎHædõ๘</font>]][[User talk:Shadowsin|<font color="darkred">یíɳ</font>]][[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 15:20, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::::way easier to get a req 9 cool looking rare gold shield imo [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]][[User:Pwnagemuffin|<font color="Brown">'''P<small>WNAGEMUFFIN</small>''' </font>]] [[User talk:Pwnagemuffin|<small><font color="Green">crabs</font></small>]] 00:17, 10 December 2008 (EST)
-==dear users:==
-<big><big><big>BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW</big></big></big> --[[User:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">Mafaraxas</font>]] <small>([[User_talk:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</small> 13:44, 6 December 2008 (EST)
-:[[Image:Cute McMonkey.png]]
-::We need anthem of flame/weariness in the bar, for AR. [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] '''<small style="font-variant:small-caps">[[Special:Contributions/Tai|<font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">05:20, 7 December 2008</font>]]</small>'''
-:::What for?
-:::You easily use FGJ! and TnTF! to mantain AR for minute needed to get from one mob to another, there is little need to upkeep it constantly outside battle.
-:::Anthem of Weariness is somewhat weak compared to enfeebling blood and there are much better options to apply burning when in physical based team. --[[User:85.214.73.63|85.214.73.63]] 06:19, 7 December 2008 (EST)
-::::Anthem of Weariness was suggested because of it's shorter recharge, if not as good as AoF.--[[Image:Altruismliger.jpg|19px]] [[User:Liger414|<font color="Bronze"><b>Liger414</b></font>]] [[User_talk:Liger414|<font color="gold"><b>talk</b></font>]] 12:47, 7 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::Not keeping up AR outside of battle is retarted. It saves you from the 25 energy dip and allows you to start off battles with "TNtF!" and FA. --{{user:Guild of Deals/signature}} 12:57, 7 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::Needs a mainbar now [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] '''<small style="font-variant:small-caps">[[Special:Contributions/Tai|<font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">12:59, 7 December 2008</font>]]</small>'''
-:::::::Why the fuck are you all continuing pointless discussion in my section? --[[User:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">Mafaraxas</font>]] <small>([[User_talk:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</small> 13:10, 7 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::::BAWWWW sounds like keep talking--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 22:59, 7 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::::::http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BAWWWW
-::::::::::What retards come up with that crap...--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 20:11, 10 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::::::::It's called the internet. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 10:51, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-== Why not... ==
-[[gww:Spear of Fury|Spear of Fury]] on the bar, good damage and adrenaline gain imo &rarr;'''<small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Felix Titling;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:gold;background-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;">[[user:Jjberks|<span style="color:white;"><big>J.J.</big></span>]] [[user talk:Jjberks|<span style="color:gold;">berks</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Jjberks|<span style="color:gold;">(contrib)</span>]]'''</small> 20:26, 9 December 2008 (EST)
-:Only three pve-only skills allowed on a bar.  "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "Save Yourselves!" are required, and ebon battle standard is a better option than spear of fury. --[[User:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">Mafaraxas</font>]] <small>([[User_talk:Mafaraxas|<font color="black">talk</font>]])</small> 00:11, 10 December 2008 (EST)
-[[gww:Enduring Harmony|Enduring Harmony]] on the bar, im my opinion a 'must have' in combination with TNTF! and/or SY!
-:EH only affects one ally, so it's pointless --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] '''<small style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Tai|<font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">17:25, 24 February 2009</font>]]</small>'''
-::"It only effects 3 allies..."* And having 3 allies buffed 50% longer with "TNTF!" can be really useful. Unless you're making use of [[gw:Finale of Restoration|The most imba healing skill in the game]]--[[User:Ikimono1|<font color="blue">'''Ikimono'''</font><small><font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon</font></small>]][[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 15:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
-:::You use EH on yourself so shouts last longer on you.[[Special:Contributions/75.88.84.17|75.88.84.17]] 12:13, September 9, 2009 (UTC)
-== Add "Go For The Eyes!" if running physical heavy team for more damage.  ==
-Wow, just wow. Do you finally start getting some brain? Quite impressed. --Anonimous.
-::stfu, mr. pve elitist. <b>[[User_talk:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ɟoʇuɐʌ</font>]][[User:Rickyvantof|<font color=black>ʎʞɔıɹ</font>]][[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]]</b> 10:49, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-:::U oh, made ricky rage. RICK-SMASH!!!!--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 10:50, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-::::GftE is a PvP skill. Why is it on here at all? -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 11:10, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::NRG gain [[User:Asdfg|Asdfg]] 11:24, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::Your energy management is the orders hero, imo, but even without you should be fine spamming SY. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 11:34, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::::Not everyone brings orders hero like they should though--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 11:36, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::::Surely Save Yourselfes gives you enough energy... --[[User:Frosty|<font color="Black">F<small>'''rosty''']]</small></font> 11:39, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::::::First time ive seen someone spell yourselves with an f--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]][[User:Relyk|<font color="red"><b>Christmas</b></font>]][[User talk:Relyk|<font color="green"><b>Relyk</b></font>]] 11:40, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-::::::::::If you don't spam skills like a maniac, SY should be enough, yeah. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small><nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki></small> 11:41, 11 December 2008 (EST)
-:::::::::::thank god sometone fixed this. [[User:JONO51|JONO51]] 13:23, 13 December 2008 (EST)
-== Name Change? ==
-So if everyone refers to this build as the "Imbagon", and nobody knows what you're talking about if you say "Foucsed PvE Paragon", why don't we just change the name of the build to "Imbagon"? --[[User:Zenroc|Zenroc]] 05:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
-:[[Imbagon]] redirects here. [[Image:ToraenSig1.jpg]] '''[[User:Toraen|<span style="color:#339966">Toraen</span>]] [[User talk:Toraen|<span style="font-size:80%;color:black">''Dirt to da face!''</span>]]''' 05:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
-::Doesnt really change the fact that no one knows what a focused pve paragon is. [[User:Life Guardian|<b><small><font color="black">Life]]</font></small></b>[[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 06:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
-:::Woot! Name change is official! [[User:Life Guardian|<b><small><font color="black">Life]]</font></small></b>[[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
-::::not really cause i just went ahead and changed it, some1 else might revert me :p [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]][[User:Pwnagemuffin|<font color="Brown">'''P<small>WNAGEMUFFIN</small>''' </font>]] [[User talk:Pwnagemuffin|<small><font color="Green">crabs</font></small>]] 18:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
-:::::Though the reason makes sense :P [[User:Fox007|<b><font color="Orange">Fox007</font></b>]] [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 18:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
-== "They're on fire!" ==
-I use this skill with 2 SF eles(one with mark of rodgort). Gives me even more dmgreduction. It is also very nice for keeping up aggressive refrain, during long runs. Sometimes the "Charge!" henchman is a little slow... 3rd hero is MOX the orders derv of course. [[Special:Contributions/82.72.233.33|82.72.233.33]] 21:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
-:'tof' is bad/redundant if you're spamming SY like you should; when damage is already reduced 80%, another 35% multiplicative is small.  If you need something to keep up Aggressive Refrain between fights, just take 'fall back!' --[[User:Mafaraxas|Mafaraxas]] 23:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
-== Mini Healer?? ==
-<pvxbig>
-[build prof=P/W motivation=8+1 lea=12 ]["Save Yourselves!" (Kurzick)]["There's Nothing to Fear!"][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]["For Great Justice!"][Focused Anger][Aggressive Refrain][Anthem of Flame][Mending Refrain][/build]
-</pvxbig>
-Cast Mending Refrain on as many players as possible and keep up by using AoF. Even if players don't use a skill to trigger the renewal, AoF ends after 10 seconds which will renew Mending Refrain. Obviously just use the rest of the build as normal. I havn't tested timing yet, so it could cause "SY!" to run out since you're not getting adrenaline while using AoF. AoF can be replaced with Anthem of Weariness to inflict Weakness instead of Burning. You can also use a Req9 Motivation Shield instead of Command. [[User:Xunlai Shadow Agent|Xunlai Shadow Agent]] 18:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
-:You're giving up how much extra damage for a few measly regen? Come on now, your healers should be able to keep up without this. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small>{&#123;[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 05:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
-::Agreed, just run straight imbagon and a motigon hero... :) Finale of Resto > Mending Refrain!!! [[User:Anwyn|Anwyn]] 06:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::In theory, in a team of 8, you are giving +24 Health Regen (3x8 for the mathmatically impared) spread around the party :D. The burning is pretty fun aswell! [[User:Xunlai Shadow Agent|Xunlai Shadow Agent]] 09:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::You should have an anthem anyway. 24 regen across 8 people is not worth a skill slot when your focus should be offensive (see also: Mending). -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small>{&#123;[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 21:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::::healers will be able to heal any minor damage/degen u take, which is practically nothing when mitigated by sy, only large amounts of damage at once pose a problem, and regen isnt much good then--[[User:Relyk|Relyk]] 22:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
-==Why...==
-is there a whole other build posted for the Luxon variant. just put "save yourselves!"(luxons) in variants, not a whole flipping other build, unless people are pants-on-head retarded and can't look for words instead of just pretty pictures...[[User:Flesh Atrophy|<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">Flesh Atrophy</font>]] 01:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
-:because its easy to copypaste the code. --'''[[User:Ojamo|<font color="Green">Oj</font>]]'''[[User Talk:Ojamo|<font color="Green">▲</font>]]'''[[Special:Contributions/Ojamo|<font color="Green">mo</font>]]''' 01:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
-::oh ya, forgot. easy is how it's done these days[[User:Flesh Atrophy|<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">Flesh Atrophy</font>]] 01:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
-== Command ==
-Is there any reason the build says Command and doesn't mention how completely interchangeable it is with Motivation? [[Special:Contributions/69.154.110.218|69.154.110.218]] 00:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
-:because command has more useful skills --'''[[User:Ojamo|<font color="Green">Oj</font>]]'''[[User Talk:Ojamo|<font color="Green">▲</font>]]'''[[Special:Contributions/Ojamo|<font color="Green">mo</font>]]''' 01:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
-:"Go for the Eyes!" and "Fall Back!" are pretty much the only worthwhile skills to take from Command or Motivation, and they're both from Command. If you don't use either, though, you can use Motivation yourself. There isn't really any point in changing the attributes, but a note could be added about using Motivation, and a matching Shield. [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 02:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
-::never surrender--[[User:Relyk|Relyk]] 02:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::Anthem of Weariness --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS"><small>[[User_talk:WhiteAsIce|<font color="#00aaff">'''WhiteAsIce'''</font>]]</small></span> 08:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
-::::Bladeturn Refrain dum nobs! --[[User:Frosty|<font color="blue"><span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty</span></font>]] [[PvX:ADMIN|<font color="red"><span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin</span></font>]] 11:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::::I still think Bladeturn will be a bit meh when you can chain Aegis and/or DA, though. [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 17:19, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
-== Variant without Aggresive refrain ==
-This build uses Soldier's Fury to replace some skills so that you don't have to maintain Aggresive Refrain anymore.
-<pvxbig>
-[build prof=P/W spe=9+1 comma=9+1 lea=12+1+1]["Go For The Eyes"][Vicious Attack][Spear of Fury (Kurzick)]["Save Yourselves!" (Kurzick)][Anthem of Flame]["They're on fire"]["There's Nothing To Fear"][Soldier's Fury][/build]
-</pvxbig><pvxbig>
-The alternative with Luxon skills has the following Skill Template:
-[build prof=P/W spe=9+1 comma=9+1 lea=12+1+1]["Go For The Eyes"][Vicious Attack][Spear of Fury (Luxon)]["Save Yourselves!" (Luxon)][Anthem of Flame]["They're on fire"]["There's Nothing To Fear"][Soldier's Fury][/build]
-<pvxbig>
-</pvxbig>
-Consider Barbed Spear instead of Vicious Attack for a condition or Anthem of Weariness when you play with fire elementalists. [[User:Vesta of the Fires|Vesta of the Fires]] 12:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
-:You'd probably want to use only "SY!" as your only adrenal skill, and sacrificing EBSoH for Spear of Fury means a lot of potential damage lost. If you've got like 6 seconds of "SY!", or Dark Fury, though, maintaining "SY!" shouldn't be a problem with Soldier's Fury. I've also tried some vanquishes around the Doomlore Shrine (Charr/Ebon area of EotN), and with your Ebon Vanguard Title track, you don't even need "FGJ!", Focused Anger or any other adrenaline boost. [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 13:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
-::I don't see why you'd want to sacrifice the awesomeness that is Agg Refrain and Focused Anger for the fail that is Soldier's Fury. Are you having trouble stopping every few seconds to cast your anthem, or mashing SY in between battles, or microing a hero, or something like that? It's honestly not hard at all. -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small>{&#123;[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 02:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::You do get more IAS out of it D: --[[User:Frosty|<font color="blue"><span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty</span></font>]] [[PvX:ADMIN|<font color="red"><span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin</span></font>]] 22:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
-== "Find Their Weakness!" ==
-How about adding this? A maintainable +35 dmg buff with deep wound application doesn't exactly sound bad to me. [[User:Throan Loremaker|Throan Loremaker]] 11:26, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-:Actually, it isn't maintainable as it ends on hit. ^_^ [[User:Brandnew|Brandnew]] 11:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-::Just noticed that myself, shoddy skill description... >.< [[User:Throan Loremaker|Throan Loremaker]] 11:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::redundant skill description is redundant. --[[User:Mafaraxas|Mafaraxas]] 21:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-::::FtW! is actually a viable replacement for Vicious now. [[User:Life Guardian|<b><small><font color="black">Life]]</font></small></b>[[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 21:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::::If you can find the Energy. If you've got "GftE!" on your bar, you're probably still better off with Vicious, if only because it's more spammable. [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 21:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-::::::Because of the recharges, FtW is ''barely'' more costly than vicious. You're running GftE why? [[User:Life Guardian|<b><small><font color="black">Life]]</font></small></b>[[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 21:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::::::''I'' don't run "GftE!", but a lot of people do. EBSoH, "TNtF!" and Focused Anger cost 29 Energy ("TNtF!" return Energy), or 24 Energy if you use "FGJ!" instead of FA, when you start a battle. Tbh, I don't run any Spear Attacks or "GftE!" because I often play without Orders (which I find unreliable). [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 22:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::So why bring GftE up at all, since it's bad? -- [[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]][[Image:Armond sig image.png]]<small>{&#123;[[Special:Contributions/Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 22:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::::::::Because a lot of players use it, and without out it, you're very unlikely to get DW out of Vicious Attack. [[User:St. Michael|<span style="color:maroon">'''ــѕт.'''</span>]][[user_talk:St. Michael|<span style="color:orange">'''мıкε'''</span>]] 00:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::::never needed it before, dont need it now--[[User:Relyk|Relyk]] 00:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
-:::::::::::I use this build on my paragon and use GftE all the time. [[User:The Wee Ham|The Wee Ham]] 15:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::::::Mike's actually the correct one, here, for some fucked up reason. Auto-crits for all the physicals in your party is stupid good, especially since they should all have scythes, and if you can't off-bad EBSoH then you'd doing it wrong. '''···'''[[User_talk:Daññy|&nbsp;]][[File:Danny-sig.png]] 17:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::And seeing 8-11 minions all get crits on their targets at the same time is pretty orgasmic. You also get some pretty funny laughs from players when they see a lvl 18 bone minion hitting for 40-50 damage.--[[User:Ikimono1|<font color="blue">'''Ikimono'''</font><small><font color ="brown">"My beard is thick."</font></small>]][[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 03:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
-== Blazing Finale? ==
-At low levels of Kurz/lux, "SY!" doesn't last to long, so casting Blazing Finale on front liners helps spread burning as "SY!" ends every 4 seconds or so. --[[User:Zenroc|Zenroc]] 22:15, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
-:a few seconds of burnin sucks in pve
-== Flurry? ==
-IAS of 33%, duration 5 seconds,
-It only reduces base attack damage. Say you hit for max on a spear (27) then youve only lost 5.4 damage...wich isnt much.
-Considering youll be attacking more often to trigger EBSoH
-Another fun thing, you can time SY with flurry. At R4 kurz/luz, SY last 5 seconds...well guess What. So does flurry.
-Just press 1 and 2 simultaneously.
-Best of all no cracked armor! or maintaining/recasting AR
-Flurry is da shiiit!
---[[Special:Contributions/208.92.18.221|208.92.18.221]] 02:36, October 23, 2009 (UTC)Barb--[[Special:Contributions/208.92.18.221|208.92.18.221]] 02:36, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
-:Or you could just use AR once you zone then use TNtF to maintain it. -- [[User:Drahgal Meir|<font color="Black">Drah</font>]] 02:49, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
-== Attributes ==
-Doesn't it make more sense to Leadership 12+1+1, Command 9(+1 if you feel like it), and Spearsmanship 9+1? The extra damage from spear mastery seems small and extra leadership will make TiNTF last a second longer, give a (potential) +1 energy whenever you use a shout and return +20% more adrenaline from Focused Anger. [[Special:Contributions/74.196.113.154|74.196.113.154]] 19:43, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
-:I've always used that.--[[User Talk:Ikimono1|<font color ="Blue">Ikimono</font><small><font color ="Brown"> "...And my axe!"</font></small>]][[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 19:44, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
-::people will bitch telling you you're wrong, but it doesn't really matter tbh. &mdash; [[User:Mafaraxas|μαφλεσ]] 23:08, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
-::: I suppose I won't bother changing it then since it's such a small difference. [[Special:Contributions/74.196.113.154|74.196.113.154]] 00:57, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
-== Why ==
-Is this the only pve general build for paragon.. [[Special:Contributions/68.163.253.252|68.163.253.252]] 16:31, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
-:PvXwiki consists of elitists, as this build is the most effective  the rest just get welled or forced to be hero only, so just check hero builds for a non imbagonbuild. [[User:Masterbow|Masterbow]] 17:17, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
-::Baaawwwwhhh. Also, just use the imba command skills. They're good too :D [[User:Karate Jesus|<font color="Black" face="cambria">'''Karate'''</font>]] [[File:KJ for sig.png]] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|<font color="Black" face="cambria">'''Jesus'''</font>]] [[User talk:Karate Jesus|<font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">17:31, 9 November 2009 </font>]]
-:because there is no reason to run a paragon other than this in pve. --'''[[User:Ojamo|<font color="Green">Oj</font>]]'''[[User Talk:Ojamo|<font color="Green">▲</font>]]'''[[Special:Contributions/Ojamo|<font color="Green">mo</font>]]''' 23:16, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
-:Because running the same build for 3 years is fun, Myrite? [[User:Masterbow|Masterbow]] 15:23, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
-::This site is for documenting the most effective builds, not the most "fun" builds, that's all up to you! --[[User:Frosty|<b><font color="Black">Frosty</font></b>]] [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 15:28, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
-:::True, but he stated there's no reason to run an other build. Agree with you though[[User:Masterbow|Masterbow]] 15:36, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
-::::Agree with Frosty, in terms of effectiveness no other para build can beat the Imbagon, or even achieve a similar form of imba-ness [[User:Tyraelxy|<font color="Black" face="Comic Sans" size="3">'''Tyrael'''</font>]][[User Talk:Tyraelxy|<font color="IndianRed" face="Comic Sans" size="3">'''XY'''</font>]] 16:16, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
-:::::That doesn't mean other working builds shouldn't be listed. [[User:Devika PVX|Devika]] 12:35, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
-::::::It does for PvXwiki [[User:Masterbow|Masterbow]] 14:27, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
-::::::Name me a paragon build concept that would work better/"as good"/nearly as fine as an imbagon. --'''<span style="font-family:Segoe Script;">[[User:Chaos|<font color="deeppink">-Chaos-]] ([[User_talk:Chaos|talk]]) </font></span>'''-- 14:37, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
-:::::::You clearly missed the point. If it works well at what it is designed to do (and is proven to) it should be listed. It should not be dismissed just because you can play an Imbagon (what if you have more than one Paragon in your party, and yes I know it's a rarity these days, wonder why?). You're effectively throttling the Paragon class right there. [[User:Devika PVX|Devika]] 18:20, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::No, that's not how PvX works. If something works at what it's supposed to do, that's great, but if another build does it better, then we WELL the inferior build and trash it. I, personally, would love to see more Paragon builds in the PvE general and heroes sections, but it's not going to happen until people stop trying to make the exact same thing as an Imbagon....but not as good (like the "fire" based builds). Paragons can do other stuff....it's just that no one cares to make those builds, or at least they don't make them well. [[User:Karate Jesus|<font color="Black" face="cambria">'''Karate'''</font>]] [[File:KJ for sig.png]] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|<font color="Black" face="cambria">'''Jesus'''</font>]] [[PvXwiki:Admin noticeboard|<font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">18:35, 3 December 2009 </font>]]
-Why bring more than one paragon in a party when one is sufficient and bringing more than one is ineffective? TahiriVeila[[Special:Contributions/128.197.40.252|128.197.40.252]] 18:38, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
-:We just had a good pve para build that was an alternative, but it got deleted cuz it wasn't and imbagon [[Special:Contributions/24.144.132.23|24.144.132.23]] 19:03, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
-::It got deleted because it was trying to do the same thing as an Imbagon, but did it less effectively. Make a build that does something well OTHER THAN party wide protection (or at least it's focus isn't party wide protection) and it will get vetted. [[User:Karate Jesus|<font color="Black" face="cambria">'''Karate'''</font>]] [[File:KJ for sig.png]] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|<font color="Black" face="cambria">'''Jesus'''</font>]] [[PvXwiki:Admin noticeboard|<font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:20, 3 December 2009 </font>]]
-'''"Why bring more than one paragon in a party when one is sufficient and bringing more than one is ineffective?"''' Bringing more than one Imbagon is unnesseccary. I wouldn't say more than one paragon is inneffective though. Paragons do more than spam Save Yourselves and There's Nothing to Fear you know. [[User:Devika PVX|Devika]] 19:17, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
-:Because that's all the defense you need, and other classes can shit out more damage. [[User:Shazam The Assassin|<font color=Orange face="Comic Sans MS">'''Shazzy]]</font color=orange>[[User Talk:Shazam The Assassin|<font color=red>diddles''']]</font color=red> 19:20, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
-If you bring 2 paragon's in a team you can maintain TNTF and stand your ground, combined with SY that makes your team even more imba. -- anon -- December 13, 2009
-:Actually, it makes your team worse. You will lose a party member, which means you'll lose damage, which makes you much MUCH less imba. [[User:Karate Jesus|<font color="crimson" face="trajan pro">'''Karate'''</font>]][[File:Candy!.png]][[User talk:Karate Jesus|<font color="darkgreen" face="trajan pro">'''Jesus'''</font>]] [[PvXwiki:Admin noticeboard|<font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:42, 13 December 2009 </font>]]
-::The opportunity cost of not taking a cruel spear/stunning strike/song of purification paragon is a strengthscythe/second earthshaker/etc. Since no other class in the game can bring spammable daze without sacrificing huge damage, it's actually not a terrible idea to bring a second (or third, or fourth, or maybe even fifth) paragon in your group. Even if all you do is stack cruel spear paragons, a good team will bring a bunch of different chants for lolable offense and defense. You're vastly underestimating the sheer damage a paragon brings - while it might not be quite as high as an aoe melee character being spoon-fed splinter, it's far from minimal, in addition to being ranged and having enough skill slots to stuff party support and utility into the bar.
-::Being able to maintain TNTF is just a nice bonus. I can think of a number of teams that would bring 3-4 paragons and only have one copy of TNTF.
-::-- [[User:Armond|Armond]] <small>{&#123;[[User talk:Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 21:41, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
-:::armond is saying paragons can bring stunning strike and support because they do pitiful damage in the first place--[[File:Relyksig3.JPG]] 21:53, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
-::::TL;DR less, bro. That's not what I said at all. -- [[User:Armond|Armond]] <small>{&#123;[[User talk:Armond|Bacon]]}}</small> 21:56, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
-== Team builds for this character? ==
-If I was soloing, what is the recommended team build for a player running this build? I am sure "just about anything" works, but given this, I read having an Arcane Orders Dervish would work great. Then what about the other 2 heroes and the rest of the henchmen? - [[User:Decollete|Decollete]] 12:05, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
-:[[Racway]], although it's a bit old. [[Sabway]] always works [[Special:Contributions/95.147.69.107|95.147.69.107]] 12:14, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
-::Tripple necro, Healing hench, Warrior hench, fire hench, optional hench.--[[User Talk:Ikimono1|<font color ="Blue">Ikimono</font><small><font color ="Brown"> "...And my axe!"</font></small>]][[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 15:39, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
-== what skill would you recommend while working toward obtaining save yourselves!? ==
-I am building up a level 20 paragon in my account, and have done medium/large portions of nightfall and GW:Eye of the North, but now I am focusing my attention on factions (welcome to cantha is my first quest) and then moving my way down to where I can pick up the Luxon/Kurzik specialty skill.
-What skill could I put in place of save yourselves (or should I run a different paragon build altogether) until I get through the main factions city areas?
-thank you
-[[User:Remoteluxury|Remoteluxury]] 00:22, February 7, 2010 (UTC)