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== Soldier's Fury? ==
== Soldier's Fury? ==
+ a shout (maybe something like "For Great Justice" to get more adren). Wouldn't that be doable for this build? I'd hate to lose the adren, but you wouldn't have cracked armor anymore. [[User:Karate Jesus|Karate Jesus]] 11:56, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
+ a shout (maybe something like "For Great Justice" to get more adren). Wouldn't that be doable for this build? I'd hate to lose the adren, but you wouldn't have cracked armor anymore. [[User:Karate Jesus|Karate Jesus]] 11:56, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
::Oops...too late. My bad. Already been said. [[User:Karate Jesus|Karate Jesus]] 11:57, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Revision as of 15:57, August 8, 2008

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Save Yourselves

With the adrenal gain and furious mod spear and all 4seconds of save yourselves is enough time to get it back fully adrenaled to use again? 11:58, 6 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni

You hit 4 times with an IAS up and you recharge SY fully. If you have Dark Fury on a hero (which you should), it takes only 2 hits to charge it. Maintaining the shout is no problem. -Auron 12:04, 6 March 2008 (EST)
Well, with Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger (with less than 15 Leadership because you'd be able to get a strike and a half per hit) /"For Great Justice!", you'll recharge "SY!" after 4 attacks, but 4 attacks with Aggressive Refrain takes four seconds and a half to make. You might not be able to maintain it completely, but it's better than not having it at all. =P -Mike 16:06, 6 March 2008 (EST)
And then dark fury. -Auron 22:45, 6 March 2008 (EST)
Throw in Mark of Fury, and that would be what? One hit to charge "SY!"? lol -Mike 22:54, 6 March 2008 (EST)
Mark of fury is a bad skill. Dark fury isn't. Dark fury conveniently fits on a jagged MM bar and requires only 5 blood. Nobody uses mark of fury because it sucks. -Auron 23:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)

I know it's a horrible skill, but I think it would be funny to be able to charge "SY!" in one attack, and using it about every second. XD -Mike 23:22, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Mark + Dark Fury + FA would only give you 6 strikes of adrenaline. One strike from the attack, one from Dark Fury, one from Mark, and then doubled. Racthoh 00:43, 7 March 2008 (EST)
Does furious spear double before or after spells? -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:29, 7 March 2008 (EST)
At Racthoh: Not with 15 in Leadership. XD The bugged cap on Focused Anger was fixed, so now you can gain 150% more adrenaline. And, I don't think that a Furious Mod doubles the adrenaline gained from the hex or enchantment. I'm pretty sure it only doubles adrenaline gained from attacks. -Mike 08:34, 7 March 2008 (EST)
When was the cap fixed? Unless it happened today, it's still broken. -Auron 08:48, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Tried out whatever I was saying, Droknars Courage Furious Anger AR Dark Fury up even with 3 seconds SY can be reapplied again and again.I'm actually kind of dumb i just saw that what I was trying has been tested by Racthoh. :) 13:25, 7 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni74.39.73.13 12:45, 7 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni

People play with 15 leadership? Racthoh 15:01, 7 March 2008 (EST)
12, 10, 8? With headpiece+major leadership or wut? Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 15:07, 7 March 2008 (EST)
I play with 16 Leadership, just so I can squeeze that extra little bit out of "There's Nothing to Fear!" and for the energy gain. =P Leadership is the most important attribute for this build, after all.-Mike 15:16, 7 March 2008 (EST)
12 10 8, 13 spear 12 lead 9 command, imo. No point in having an odd number in leadership, no point in having more than 14 (at *most*, and you really don't need more than 12), and spear should be huge. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 16:11, 7 March 2008 (EST)
I don't see how Spear Mastery helps, as when I fight with 11 Spear Mastery, I hit for 3-10 damage, on average. In Hard Mode, I generally hit for 3-6 damage. It isn't Spear Mastery that helps, but the Vampiric Mods, and other buffs (like EBSoH, Order of Pain). I play with 12+1+3 Leadership (which I might reduce to 12+1+1), 10+1 Spear Mastery and 8+1 Command/Motivation. -Mike 18:15, 7 March 2008 (EST)
Upping your spear mastery ups your damage from both normal attacks and spammed SoL's. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 19:13, 7 March 2008 (EST)
Not by much, but I don't use Spear of Lightning anyhow. I'd rather bring Signet of Return and "For Great Justice!" instead. -Mike 19:56, 7 March 2008 (EST)
Adrenaline boosters cap at +100%. No need for "FGJ!" Signet of Return shouldn't be needed, as you'll be giving a +100 armor boost along with some damage reduction (that means that nothing will practically die). Spear of Lightning is a great damage dealer for Paragons, as it has a relatively short recharge, armor penetration, and pretty good damage. --GoD Sig3GuildofDeals 19:58, 7 March 2008 (EST)
"FGJ!" isn't meant to be combined with Focused Anger, it's for the downtime in the middle of a fight when FA ends, and your party might not be ready for the loss of +100 armor. When you play with Heroes and Henchmen 90% of the time, you'll be glad that you bring a rez. That's why, I still think that the main bar should be Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger, "There's Nothing to Fear!", "Save Yourselves!", "For Great Justice!", and a bunch of optionals. With an allegiance rank of 3, you can't afford to use skills like Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!" and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (to a lesser extent) because it'll impair your adrenaline gain and leave gaps between "SY!"s. Also, the notes about pairing this with another Paragon that uses the same build should be removed, because two Paragons with the same bar is a waste of one party member. -Mike 20:13, 7 March 2008 (EST)
I've used the exact bar on here, always with heroes and henchies, since I was r1. No problems. Why exactly can't you use ward honor, anthem flame, and GftE? It takes like a second to use any of them, and if you knew what you were doing when picking heroes and henchies (hint: bring a bsurge and Mhenlo), it won't matter. GftE is the one you should be most certain of bringing, actually; it's an instant-activation energy management skill, and thus what lets you operate through things like Quicksand, Spirit Shackles (I'm not kidding; I've gone just fine through spirit shackles while spamming autoattacks before), esurge spikes, and what have you. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 20:18, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Droknars Courage and Cyndirs Aegis both give HP+30 (didnt buy both lucky drop and droknar key ^_^). Leadership 12+2,Motivation 6+2+1,Spear 11+1. taking spear down to 9 motivation down to 10 will give u 8 command. I don't have those AL 15 shields or my stats would have more spear but oh well. even with 2 majors I still use only 1 survivor,vitae,and minor vigor. 465 without shield and sword and 525 with both.I can bring a few more skills now since energy is near constant up with SY!Let me know If it could use a different setup or if it's okay. Palin Oni 06:41, 8 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni

Do whatever you like. Most of us would say the benefit of two major runes doesn't outweigh the cost of -70 health, but you'll probably be okay most of the time. --Mafaraxas sig Mafaraxas 14:12, 8 March 2008 (EST)
I just prefer using a 15 AL req 7 shield so I can get 14 spear and 12 leadership. No majors necessary. Racthoh 14:33, 8 March 2008 (EST)
Spear Mastery isnt even nessacary, the main focus of the build is party support. I run the build as posted on the main page at Leadership 10+1+1, Command 10 & Spear Mastery 11+1 with Mallyx's Cruelty & Shield of the Condemned (Command) & do just fine with no loss to my armour level in cases of Weakness and an extra 10 health due to less runes being used. Selket Shadowdancer 13:09, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

This build is made of too much win.

But I suppose there has to be at least ONE decent paragon build in existence :P --Srakin 23:13, 14 March 2008 (EDT)

Paragons did not need PvE skills to have good builds. Racthoh 03:07, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
They do now. >.> -Mike 08:37, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
You're equating nerfed skills with bad skills, which is a bad habit to fall into. That said, I've not seen the latest skill updates. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 19:33, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
If paragons needed PvE skills to be good I would like to know why people use paragon heroes. Racthoh 01:26, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
A lot (if not most) builds used "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields Up!" which have both been nerfed almost to uselessness. Even though they are Warrior skills, the nerfs affected nearly all P/W builds out there, and I'm sure a lot of people were disappointed. The Motivation line is still just barely decent, and still worth the use on a hero, but if it keeps getting hit, they could potentially ruin the entire class. -Mike 15:30, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
Like that terrible build with Spear of Lightning, 9 Spear Mastery, 6 shouts/chants with Signet of Return? Racthoh 17:21, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

Don't even get into a paragon argument, seriously. — Skakid 17:24, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

Well, for PvP and Heroes, the Motivation line is still a viable option for a support Paragon and possibly the only one left (maybe a little bit of Command, but Command is mostly offense-oriented.) Use this with a hero that has something like Ballad of Restoration, Song of Restoration, Finale of Restoration, Signet of Synergy and the former Mending Refrain. Party-wide healing shouldn't be overlooked, but I probably wouldn't run a support Paragon on my heroes or in PvP (which I never did anyhow) unless he used Motivation. -Mike 18:09, 19 March 2008 (EDT)
The former mending refrain? How is it any different from the current one? A single pip of regen? That isn't enough of a nerf to warrant not using it. It's still an amazing skill, what with heroes using it automatically. Passive healing + passive defense = monk henchies can reserve energy for hex/condi removal :)
Anyway... signet of synergy is weak, finale of restoration is weak. Song of resto is decent, but there are better options for hero bars (purification, for example). You don't run a bar full of motivation, you run the general hybrid of spear mastery and whatever else (be it motivation or command). On top of generic stuff, you can run a few more things; Hexbreaker Aria, Aria of Zeal (an incredible motivation chant), and Anthem of Envy. Oh, and don't overlook otherwise-lacking spear skills that shine when combined with Dark Fury; Stunning Strike and Wild Throw. -Auron 13:34, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
When I say the former Mending Refrain, I mean before they reduced the duration, because it's a pain to maintain it now. I'm not saying I wouldn't take it, though. Finale of Restoration is anything but weak when used properly; 75 health per Chant/Shout ending when Shouts/Chants end every 4 seconds or less when combined with this build, and you can apply it to ~3 allies (more if using Serpent's Quickness). Signet of Synergy is kind of meh, but the Paragon isn't a primary healer anyway, and it can come in handy. I wouldn't waste my Elite for condition removal, as Purifying Finale can be enough, and if not, I just put Foul Feast on the MM (who takes Infuse Condition). If I wanted Daze, I'd probably take Awe/Spear Swipe, or just another profession to do it. My heroes wouldn't be fighting without Spear Mastery, but I wouldn't put any more than 2 attack skills on them because I wouldn't devote a Paragon to offense, as they seem lacking if compared to Rangers (who can use Preparations). Then again, the Paragon is a support class. -Mike 14:02, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
That's right, because Paragons can't use preparations. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 14:09, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
MMs suck compared to a build with paragons. MMs do two things; raise corpses to act as a firewall, taking any damage thrown their way so the party doesn't have to. With paragons, that's unnecessary, the party can take all the damage and it's still easy to manage. Minions also attack random targets; again, as Racthoh has pointed out elsewhere, random targetting isn't what you go for in a team of paragons. You want to take a single target down quickly, not weaken everything little by little.
Finale of restoration is only good in a team absolutely full of physicals. And I mean like 8 paragons and warriors. Anything less and it's really subpar, and a waste of the skill slot. Same with signet of synergy; you can do so much more with the slot, why waste your time?
And eh, purifying finale is terrible. Conditions are only ever a problem when they're applied to multiple people at once. If a single enemy is using bflash or something, the monk has no trouble condi removing it off. If three eruptions cause your entire frontline to be blinded, then you get to see just how sucky purifying finale is. The low energy cost shows how powerful Anet thinks it is, and I'd have to agree, it's pretty junk.
No, stunning strike can't be beaten. Stunning is weak without Dark Fury, but Awe and Spear Swipe are absolute trash no matter what you do. 10 energy for each and both are insanely conditional. Unless you have an unusually skilled earth shaker war, the Awe para isn't ever going to be dazing the right targets. And if you have said skilled earth shaker war, you probably won't need daze anyway, as the monk will be on his ass until he dies. Spear Swipe's melee range requirement makes it a joke.
Lastly, Paragon DPS is slightly higher than ranger DPS. Rangers can do the glass arrows conjure spike, but it takes all of your attributes, most of your skill slots, and in the end, is still a spike; paragon DPS is still higher, plus they get to do cool things like party support. -Auron 22:17, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
Splinter Weaponnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn 22:23, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
A good MM (most likely using OoU) will benefit the team offensively more than one Paragon, although I agree their targeting is random. For a Paragon that can't completely maintain "Save Yourselves!" (because of a duration of 4 or less), Finale of Restoration can definitely help the team (on a second Paragon). Shouts and Chants will be ending every 3 seconds, and that's 25 health per second on at least 3 targets (with ~15 Motivation). Purifying Finale can be useful when facing conditions being reapplied over and over, as well. The thing about Stunning Strike is that it's Elite, unlike Awe and Spear Swipe, even though those two are less practical, but if I wanted an Elite Daze, Broad Head Arrow would probably be better. Also, I'm sure Spear of Fury will help charge Stunning Strike, if you're depending on Dark Fury. When it comes to attacks, Rangers generally have more effective skills, and much more offensive utility (except maybe DW), and can thus deal more damage, but both Paragons' and Rangers' DPSs are just meh most of the time, except Splinter Barrage. XD Paragons can deal ~50 DPS, but that is against 60 AL foes, and while using a buff like a Conjure. -Mike 22:50, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
A good MM is a hero and it uses Jagged Bones. Lrn2PvE. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 22:58, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
When I said MM, I meant one that tries to sustain his minions, instead of bombing. I know, bombing is good, but my MM hero uses OoU to deal more damage with attacks against heavily-armored foes, although I have a Rt/N Jagged Bones Bomber. -Mike 23:09, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
No, BHA is not better than Stunning Strike, for a ton of reasons. One, it misses a bunch; bosses seem to randomly know when it's coming and move slightly then stop to cast again. That slight movement makes the BHA miss and I have to wait another 15 seconds for it to hit. Stunning misses much less often, and recharges faster too, so even if it does miss, I get another chance sooner than with BHA. And lastly (this one's obvious), rangers suck compared to paragons. They offer nothing over what a paragon can do with that slot. Apply Poison? 6 damage per second, weak. Dshot and savage? Fun, but weak. You don't need to interrupt stuff, you need to kill stuff.
Finale and all that is unnecessary. You don't need to waste the skill slot to have random 25 hp heals, because that's what your monk will be doing anyway. SY and TNTF reduces the damage to nothing, and the monk (or monks, if you absolutely need a second one) can just heal the excess, while the paragons who don't waste skill slots on healing can focus on killing. And what is better than song of puri in that elite slot? Song resto for more unneeded healing, while you sacrifice damage slots for purifying, which does a worse job anyway? -Auron 21:35, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
less arguing about random shit on the imbagon page, imo. --Mafaraxas sig Mafaraxas 23:17, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
I would much rather have stunning strike than BHA when there's dark fury involved. Also, Auron, when you use SoP do you have to micro it much? When I take it they seem to refuse to use it unless the whole party has 3 conditions or something stupid. --MalaMala sig Mind Blast 20:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
I've never had to tbh. Was doing gates of madness the other day and tanked eruptions like mad, yet blind didn't seem to be a problem. I'll pay more attention in the future, they might not use it very often. -Auron 21:21, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
They use it as well as heroes use any adrenaline skill. However it's still the best skill for dealing with dazed, blind, and weakness, the three conditions that matter in PvE. Racthoh 22:42, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
Alright, thanks. I guess I'll just pay more attention and only bring it when that stuffs gonna be a problem. :p --MalaMalasigMagebane Shot 13:02, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
I have noticed I have to micro stunning. He'll use it occasionally on his own, but nowhere near on recharge. Plus he'll stop to cast AoF on recharge, which slightly slows down adren gain; if you micro stunning he'll do nothing else until he's built up adren and launched it. -Auron 09:21, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
All adrenaline skills work like that on a hero, they won't use it right away which is what makes warrior heroes sadly so bad to use. That and the whole flee from AoE. Racthoh 17:30, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

This build is semi-decent if no melee-hate is present and if you have very high PvE ranks. It is absolutely useless in zones with lots of anti-melee or blocking. Also there are far better ways to play it as Monk/P or Ritualist/P...

Bring a RC monk. Bring enchantment removal. Bring Swift Javelin. Don't try to do a paragon's job when you're a monk or ritualist. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 02:52, 25 April 2008 (EDT)


5-5-5 NOW Antiarchangel Antiarchangel No U Sig NO U 20:53, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Voidwalker and St. Michael ftl--Goldenstar 21:09, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

One attack skill makes me cry tbh. Racthoh 22:42, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
You can put in swift javelin instead of optional, and just beef up the variants section (telling people to remove AoF for any of the cool pve skills like ebshonor). -Auron 22:44, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
I like Vicious and SoL, Swift over SoL when Order of Pain is involved. With as much energy as the build has I like using the fastest recharging energy attack skills paragon's have. Racthoh 22:51, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
Harrier's has strong animation — Skakid 22:54, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Woot messing around helps, left Farzi in equipments.Palin Oni 04:03, 25 March 2008 (EDT)Palin Oni

Why would you need non-max shield when you have 9 in Command? ~ ĐONT*TALK 04:38, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

O.o, thanks for fixing., more spear is good, but no need.Palin Oni 05:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)Palin Oni

Saying that a build is effective in every area is untrue. I agree that this probably is one of or the best defensive team-oriented build out there, but no build merits a perfect 5-5-5 because there will be counters. For one, in Asuran territory where there are many Wind Riders, they will maintain Soothing Images on you, and stack hexes on you as well. If you're facing Quetzals, it could be worse as they can copy the Shouts and use them. Also, there are areas where Blind would be continually applied, such as fighting against monsters using Weapon of Shadow, Ebon Dust Aura, and Shadow Song. Many players, and most heroes can't keep up with the constant reapplication of conditions, and the Cracked Armor doesn't help. As with every build, there are plenty of counters, which is why we refrain from using them in areas where these counters are common. By listing Counters in a build, it means that the build is imperfect. It might be perfect for certain areas, but the reasoning for the removal of my vote is that it's effective in all areas. Honesty is worth more than a perfect score. -Mike 17:38, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
I don't think I know of a single monster that uses weapon of shadow, only like two in the entire vabbi area that use EDA (and they die in seconds, not much time to apply blind tbh) and shadowsong is easily killed by simply targeting it and having the heroes wand it down. You can use TNTF on recharge through soothing images, but I agree, it blows; try using one of Racthoh's hex-counter paragon hero builds and you rip through them just as quickly as anything else. I mean, you know they're gonna use hexes, so why not build to counter it? :)
If a player can't deal with the cracked armor from AR, he's pretty bad at the game. Is he trying to dismiss each one individually? Is he trying to use extinguish each time? Really, you can leave the cracked armor on, the paragon still has over 80 AL with a shield and centurions insig.
Basically, the only area you mentioned that is actually a pain is soothing images spamming wind riders; to breeze through it you don't even have to change your build, you just have to change your heroes' builds. I'd say that makes this Focused PvE Paragon pretty universal - especially considering this works in Hard Mode of most places, which is a feat most builds can't touch. -Auron 21:18, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
WHEN I CAN'T SY WAND DPS MAKES ME WIPE! Unless there are physicals around when you're hit with Soothing Images then the Wind Riders really don't matter. Also Shadowsong takes 5 seconds to place, that is more than enough time to kill whatever used Shadowsong. Or, kill the Shadowsong. Bring armor ignoring damage (gogo hexes) for the Quetzals on the other 7 members or something. If there are counters to SY, there are counters for everything you do as a paragon so you might as well bring it. Racthoh 22:28, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
SERIOUSLY SOME BUILD MASTER NEEDS TO REMOVE THOSE VOTES! This build is the very definition of imba, (hence the name 'imbagon'). There is no area where this is not effective enough to outclass every other class in terms of damage reduction. At worst it has uber effectiveness in 99.999% of Guild Wars pve. Saying it has a 4 out of five in universality is saying that it's pretty effective but is only effective in 4 out of five areas in GW. That is not true. This build needs to be a 5-5-5 simply because it is imba. This is what people pointed to when they said A-net didn't care about pve balance before Ursan. Many people thought this build BROKE pve. Ty for your time Wtbursanswtsizzy 01:30, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
It's not going to make a difference either way... -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 10:01, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
Yes it will because then we'll get one of those awesome. "This build has been voted 5-5-5 and thus qualifies for the UBER category....blah blah blah things." Wtbursanswtsizzy 12:35, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
Said quote (or tag or w/e it is/was) doesn't exist as part of the Vetting system, it was added by a user as a humorous gag for obviously leet builds (not in the good way either), so even if it had a perfect 5, nothing would change to the main article. ~PheNaxKian (T/c) Phenaxkian sig phoenix 13:19, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

possibilities for flail??

do any of you think it would work to take flail instead of aggressive refrain? i have a problem with heroes spamming their condition removal on me to get rid of my cracked armor condition and it wastes their energy which could be used for when TNTF is not up. some damage does get thru "SY!" and they need the energy for when that damage gets thru. So, if you have alot of adrenaline gain (FA/necromancer order for adrenaline) would it work to take flail instead of AR? sorry for a very poorly written paragraph :)Klomi 01:43, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

You can, you just won't be able to spam SY as much. --71.229 01:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
I guess it would effectively make SY cost 9 adrenaline. If you have a high enough AB rank it shouldn't be a problem. --MalaMalasigMagebane Shot 06:08, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
To get past Aggressive Refrain's reapplication of Cracked Armor, you could put Foul Feast on an MM or other Necromancer (works well with Plague Touch, Sending, Signet, Contagion and/or Infuse Condition). If you give them high enough Soul Reaping, they could actually gain energy if they're removing more than one condition. I put Foul Feast and Infuse Condition on my OoU MM hero to get past the stacks of conditions. -Mike 07:10, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
Or you could not be bad at the game and bring a shield? -Auron 14:20, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
Take the condition removal off your heroes, problem solved. Would your rather your heroes spend 5 energy removing Bleeding, or Burning, or Poison over Cracked Armor? Unless you're routinly expecting conditions that actually matter (dazed, blind, weakness for physical heavy teams) then don't bother with removal on the monks. Get Song of Purification. Racthoh 15:41, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
Personally, my "monk" backline consists of the derv orders healspammer and a Restore Condition monk. If the AI is going to abuse their condition removal, you may as well make it cheap and good. Also, when damage actually does get through SY and TNTF, well... the monk RCs it off of me. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 21:03, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
I like using Foul Feast on my MM hero (who has Infuse Condition) because it can actually work as energy management. -Mike 21:31, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
I'd do that if it didn't require sacrificing my SoP hero for bad damage. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 21:34, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
Just to clarify: By that I don't mean bad damage as in not enough damage output. I will admit that minion masters have a good chunk of damage output. I mean bad damage as in the damage type; it's not physical, holy, or elemental damage, it's just bad damage. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:11, 10 April 2008 (EDT)

Spear of Fury

Why not use anthem of weakness and spear of fury? Oh, and its truly possible to maintain save yourselves! with 3-4 allegiance rank? 09:57, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

._. nevermind missed it in variants 09:58, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
Actually, it isn't possible to maintain "Save Yourselves!" with only 3-6 in Allegiance Rank. With Aggressive Refrain, you'll be hitting every 1.125 seconds (if I'm not mistaken), meaning you'll have downtime of at least 0.5 seconds. Every time you use Anthem of Flame/Weariness, you lose an additional ~1.75 seconds (which can be regained if you time Spear of Fury properly, if you have it on your bar), and whenever you use "Go for the Eyes!", you lose a strike of Adrenaline, which will have to be recovered in another ~1.125 seconds. I try to cut out most of those Anthems and other Adrenal skills because I don't usually have any melee (or other ranged attackers) on my team, so there really isn't any benefit. I also use Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (which would mean 1.75 seconds of downtime to "SY!" every 20 seconds at r3-6), but I have r8 in my allegiance rank, so all that downtime would lose 1 second. Then again, unmaintainable "SY!" is still much better than no "SY!". -Mike 10:16, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
Get someone (probably a hero) to bring Dark Fury. Problem solved. --Mafaraxas sig Mafaraxas 12:26, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
Too bad Minion Masters and SF heroes are so gud. XD It depends what kind of team you have; if it consists of mostly casters (which my Hero and Henchmen teams usually do) you can usually cut out "GftE!" and the Anthems (maintain Aggressive Refrain with "Fall Back!", "They're on Fire!" and/or "There's Nothing to Fear!"), and if it does have a lot of melee, it would be beneficial to keep the Anthems, "GftE!" and a Orders Necromancer (or Dervish) with Dark Fury. Also, if you depend on your allies to make a build work effectively, it should be a Team build. -Mike 12:57, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
Except... wrong? SF heroes are terrible. Nukers in general are bad, but Savannah Heat heroes outperform Searing Flames ones simply by not running out of energy.
It's already been stated why minion masters are pretty trash on a team with a paragon. Just bring other paragons, you get more team defense/healing/condi removal and more focused damage. The standard two para, 1 derv orders build rocks the hell out of searing flames eles and minion masters. -Auron 14:20, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
It really does. Nuker heroes and minion masters are far worse than three paragons and a derv orders for taking out monks, especially in hard mode. Not to mention area damage is bad for taking out single targets like bosses or warriors in your backline.
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that under Aggressive Refrain, you chuck spears at a rate of one per second. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 21:00, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
You are indeed incorrect. It is 1.125 or something. 33% Buff is 1/s~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   21:02, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
Yep, guildwiki says 1.13 seconds. Regardless, Dark Fury is your friend. --Mafaraxas sig Mafaraxas 21:03, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
In any case if your backline is not capable of surviving without +100 AL for 1, 2, hell 3 seconds then ragequit. The skill didn't exist before and players certainly didn't need it then. Even when hard mode was introduced players were still somehow able to survive before the PvE skills came into play. Racthoh 01:33, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
But could the survive and sleep at the same time? I thought not. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 01:34, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
Well, I'm sure a lot of teams had either a third Monk or a Ritualist instead of a Paragon. I still like using 2 SF henchmen to provide burning for "They're on Fire!" and an OoU Minion Master to take care of my conditions. I agree that an Orders Dervish will let your team destroy PvE, but I don't think I'd take any more than 2 Paragons in a team; myself and a hero with a Motivation bar. Moebius Blossom takes the most out of the orders due to its attack rate and already high DPS, but heroes aren't any good with attack chains. -Mike 07:21, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
If you really need all the extra damage reduction from ToF (assuming, for the sake of argument, that you can maintain it indefinitely given its highly conditional nature), you're doing it wrong. That's way too much defense. Also, Anton and Zenmai are fine with MS/DB. Seriously, try the build Racthoh has on his user page; even if, for some reason, paragon heroes randomly stop using their skills at all, ever, (like, ANet randomly shuts down paragon heroes), you won't be out more than a few thousand gold. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:10, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
The issue I have with sin heroes is stuff dying before they get the combo going. Dagger DPS is kinda ehhhhh against armoured foes. Racthoh 18:24, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

If anything, Dagger DPS (more specifically Moebius Strike+Death Blossom's) is the best because it has one of the highest DPSs for meeleers and doesn't rely on base damage. Scythe and Hammer DPSs are lacking against armored foes. When I tried using MS/DB on my heroes, they don't spam their attacks as they should, so I don't use it on them. Heroes are usually bad with dagger attack chains. -Mike 19:11, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

7-17 per hit with a hit every second is so much better than 9-41 per hit against up to three foes once every 1.75 seconds. Yeah, ok.
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, properly used daggers have really good DPS, but Racthoh meant just autoattacking because the heroes failed at getting their chain started. I still think imbagonway DPS is better, though, but I've not done the calculations. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 20:53, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
If you use an imbagon + a Tainted minion bomber(yes taint in pve) + an SS/Wep spells necro (barbs, mark of pain, splinter),and a N/Rt SLW healer you can clear most of UW with just these guys, no other pugs/guildmates. The disease on everything is hella good when you encounter anything with heals.


Was about to rate this until I saw that it had 69 votes, obviously shouldn't change such an awesome number. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 13:47, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

Ska probably would've removed it anyway. Look at the bottom of the ratings page :P Gogey 16:51, 15 April 2008 (EDT)


This should be called what people looking for it will be searching for. (Imbagon) The preceding unsigned comment was added by Teutonic (contribs) .

Imbagon doesn't say enough about the build, imo. People apparently play imbagons in PvP (or did at least, before the Tactics nerfs XD), and this has 3 PvE skills (usually). Just using Imbagon as a redirect is enough. The only thing worth changing the name to would include something like Damage Reduction, and having Paragon in the name shouldn't be necessary, but I find the name to be fine as it is. -Mike 19:04, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
Imbagon redirects here. Try it. --71.229 19:09, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
Lol awsome PheNaxKian (T/c) Phenaxkian sig phoenix 19:10, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
See Category:Common name redirects. --Mafaraxas sig Mafaraxas 21:28, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
it's also called 'the god paragon'.--Reason.decrystallized 16:10, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
People who know what an "Imbagon" is know what the build looks like. Keep the name as it is. Kthx. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 16:18, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Type Imbagon in the search bar, it redirects you to this. This discussion is redundant. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 16:22, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Okay, next time I read the whole discussion, lolz. Seems that was already brought up. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 16:23, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

More Dmg Reduction

They're on Fire, since you have Anthem of Flame.--=FireFire Tock SigPic 2Tock= 13:55, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

Been discussed before. I think the decision was "no". — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 13:56, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
It really depends on your setup; if you were using two SF eles (and Mark of Rodgort or Balzing Finale, if you prefer) then "They're on Fire!" would be fine, but it isn't worth the place on the main bar. We could add it to Variants with notes about using it with SF eles and such. -Mike 14:29, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
if you're using SF eles, you're doing it wrong. Same goes for having this much defense and needing more - my fow monks go afk as it is. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 16:06, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
If you're using TNTF and SY and need ToF then you're definately doing it wrong. Racthoh 03:45, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
It's easier to maintain Aggressive Refrain (and Mending Refrain, if you've got it on another teammate's bar) out of battle with "ToF!", instead of stopping every couple seconds to use Anthem of Flame. Or, you could just take another Headpiece, with +3+1 Leadership, and maintain AR with "TNtF!". The thing is, if you've got a low allegiance rank, you might not have the time to use Anthem of Flame or "GftE!" because it'll leave gaps between your "SY!"s. -Mike 08:55, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
Then get better monks. A 4 second SY has something like a 1 second downtime under optimal situations. A 3 second SY would be 2 seconds tops so about a 60:40 ratio of not being able to die. If the monks can't monk 40% of the time I'm grabbing Mhenlo. Racthoh 16:06, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
Also, who cares if your AR drops? Take the two seconds to put it up again before the battle. (Also, my 4 second SY has no downtime, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't even if it were a 2 second SY.) -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 18:30, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
Using Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain, you attack at 1.125, it takes 4 hits to fuel "SY!" and 4.5 seconds to gain that adrenaline. A half a second lost is nothing to worry about, but when you start using "GftE!" and Anthem of Flame, you increase that downtime. "GftE!" will cost you about another second (5.5 seconds) and Anthem of Flame, 1.75 seconds (cast+aftercast; 6.25 seconds), although you can make up for this with Spear of Fury, Dark Fury or other adrenaline boosting skills that actually work with Focused Anger. I've got 5 seconds of "SY!" because I used to AB quite a bit, so this isn't really a big problem, but it was kind of nice when "SY!" triggered echoes like Finale of Restoration ("SY" rarely ends with r7+). I don't usually take a lot of melee (heroes and henchmen are pretty bad at melee-ing, imo), making Anthem of Flame pretty worthless. In the end, +100 armour that can be maintained 60% of the time is better than not having +100 armour at all. =P -Mike 19:36, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
It's kind of assumed you run this with this hero, though it's not totally necessary. --Mafaraxas sig Mafaraxas 19:51, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
you mean there are people who don't o.O?--Reason.decrystallized 17:52, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

"don't suck"

While i agree that you shouldn't suck, i don't think it's fair to put the blame on the entire party wiping soley on the person playing could be the monks jsut suck and aren't heaing/prtting properly, or any frontliners for not maintaining aggro, so while i don't mind the note being there, perhaps jsut remove the it's all your fault bit...~PheNaxKian (T/c) Phenaxkian sig phoenix 13:50, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Nah, was some revert fight about it some time ago; keep it. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 13:55, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
See, the thing is, the party brings such ungodly defense into this one brainless build, and if the guy running this build messes up, the party loses most or all of its defense. Monks can be good, but they're generally not leet enough to cope with the entire party losing all its defense. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 14:00, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
True but you have to remember that monks in teams without this build in the team, seem to cope reasonably well (i'm not saying perfect but they avoid unecersarry deaths, usually just where there's probably too much aggro)~PheNaxKian (T/c) Phenaxkian sig phoenix 14:40, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
The monks really shouldn't be blamed for deaths while they have an imbagon on the team. The healing they need to do, especially factoring possible prots, is minimal, and you'd have to AFK or overaggro to die. While it is very blatant, it mostly is the paragons fault if the team dies. --NYC Elite 17:47, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

Usage of Anthem of Flame

If you're going to be bringing Anthem of Flame mainly for the purpose of keeping Aggressive Refrain up, I think you're wasting a skill slot. Aggressive Refrain can be easily kept up with "There's Nothing to Fear!," as long as you shout it immediately after use. Plus, you won't be slowed down for 1 second casting Anthem of Flame every 10 seconds, as TNtF is a shout. Slot might be better put to use for "For Great Justice!" (I know that it is a variant, but the constant double adrenaline for longer fights seems a must in order to keep SY up). 07:51, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

Anthem of Flame is nice when you have a lot of physicals in your team, but "Fall Back!", which will allow you to move faster than normal instead of slowing you down, is listed as a variant. Also, it might be worth mentioning that you could take a headpiece with +1+3 Leadership when you activate AR, and then switch back to your normal set for battle. Instead of Anthem of Flame on my bar, I usually take "They're on Fire!" or "Fall Back!", depending on my team. -Mike 09:11, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
ToF and FB are both pretty bad. AoF isn't that awesome, but it lets you keep AR up without losing energy and the total damage done by everyone on your team (because, in all honesty, if you're running this bar you should have at least six physicals) isn't too shabby. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 16:26, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
This would be best run with physicals (which have the potential to deal more than twice the DPS of any casters), but heroes and henchmen make bad physicals most of the time because they don't spam skills like D-Slash or Enraged Smash properly. They were also pretty bad with Dagger combos (MS/DB, for one) but they might have improved that with the May 8th Update. As long as you don't have to keep AR up out of battle with Anthem of Flame/Weariness, I'm fine with the current setup. -Mike 16:39, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
Paragon, two paragon heroes, dervish hero, mhenlo, physical henchmen of choice. As was stated above. Works wonderfully. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}}
I would say FGJ should be in there instead. As Racthoh says, the times you need SY the most are times longer than Focused Anger's duration. -Shen 18:12, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
Honestly, I would consider archiving this and replacing it with the gon + heroes team. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 18:24, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
That would be a separate team build, instead. There's no reason to archive this, as this doesn't just work with physicals, but is complimented by them. -Mike 18:34, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
This is an old version of a build that has been largely superseded by the team build. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 21:09, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
It still works well enough with unorganized groups. I don't use those 2 Paragons+Dervish setups, because I'm too addicted to OoU (10 minions triggering EBSoH ftw) and SF eles (for lower-end PvE, because I realized how little damage you deal against level 28s). Besides, a couple PvE Team Builds using Physicals+Orders+Weapon Spells+Build:N/A Mark of Pain Nuker were recently deleted for some reason. >.> -Mike 21:36, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
Probably because those three builds would be bad in the team. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 21:53, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

Spear of Fury

Dunno when they changed it, but in order to get the 4 adrenaline from Spear of Fury, you now have to be at least rank 5 Luxon/Kurzick. Enough to change the note at the bottom? ScythXIII 16:13, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

The attack gets 1 strike also. ~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   16:19, 29 May 2008 (EDT)


I've heard this called the "imbagon" more than the current name. Should we move this to "Build:P/W Imbagon?" ~ ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳZealot's Fire(contribs) 23:11, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Imbagon redirects here, anyway. Plus, Imbagon is a little too vague for my taste. >.> -Mike 23:13, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
Fair enough. ~ ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳZealot's Fire(contribs) 23:16, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

So on a scale of 0(Smiting Monk In PvE)-10(Super Imba). How imba is this build?killAruna For Great JusticeLeet! 17:20, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Seventeen point five. Brandnew. 17:21, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
Hey, Smiting Monks can be decent if you're using Reversal of Damage, Divine Boon, Smiter's Boon and the such. Anyway, this is one of the most overpowered if not the most overpowered build in PvE, but don't tell ArenaNet, because it's one of the few good builds Paragons have left. >.> -Mike 17:29, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
Not really. Get a proper prot monk. :P
But yeah, 17.5 is a good estimate. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 19:29, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
The whole point of using imbagon for protection is that the protection is more party based and the shouts are unstrippable, instant cast unstrippable shouts>strippable enchants. Imbagon is better tbh. --Daedelus 07:07, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
This build is godly, i was able with my guild to do Gyala Hatchery HM with only a N/RT hero healer and an imbagon...

lol at 17.5 its OVER NINETHOUSAAAAND !!!!!! lilondra 08:22, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm sure we all appreciate you clogging recent changes and watchlists with that important piece of information. --Mafaraxas (talkcontribs) 12:42, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
Sry i wasted 10 seconds of youre time want a REFUND ? Oo lilondra 09:00, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
yes pls --Mafaraxas (talkcontribs) 14:42, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
Do you also refund the babies that cant laugh because of you ? (or that cant stop laughing because of you ?) Anyway how do you want it its hard to pay in brain cells.lilondra 02:38, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
PvX:NPA, keep it in mind plox--GoldenGoldenstarStar 07:12, 18 July 2008 (EDT)

Somone do the!!!

If you're an Ele, have no enchants on and an imbagon in your team uses everything/all of his skills to keep his party from taking damage... and you (the ele) get hit by a spell that does 100 damage, how much damage would you take?--Phail Phail Sig Pic Tock A guide to this user. 22:05, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

18 damage (with just "SY!") or 12-15 damage (with "SY!" and "TNtF!") ــмıкεнaшк 00:39, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
wow.--Phail Phail Sig Pic Tock A guide to this user. 12:38, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Take Shielding Hands or Shield of Absorption, and you'll be seeing lotsa 100s turn into 0s. XD ــмıкεнaшк 12:43, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
remember the 60 Al armor already from eles.--Phail Phail Sig Pic Tock A guide to this user. 13:03, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
my para uses this a lot and i just had a thought, what if we took out anthem of flame and put in Great Dwarf Weapon or Great Dwarf Armor?--Phail Phail Sig Pic Tock A guide to this user. 13:04, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
I think you mean Anthem of Flame, but I usually take Ebon Battle Standard of Honor in that optional, which is also the third PvE-only skill. Great Dwarf Weapon is good, but probably not worth it on this Paragon's bar, while Great Dwarf Armor is pointless because additional armor effects don't stack, sadly. ــмıкεнaшк 13:07, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
(EC)You should read this. 60 AL has a damage multiplier of 1. Burning Refrain isn't in there. Anthem of flame is to keep up AR when moving tbh and add some extra burning during the fight. Since you want to be spamming SY as much as possible, putting in GDW takes away a lot of time where you would be gaining adrenaline. Leave those things up for someone else. Great Dwarf Armor cld probably help (to maintain on yourself), but isn't really needed either. --Sazzy 13:09, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
i said anthem of flame, look.--Phail Phail Sig Pic Tock A guide to this user. 13:13, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
The damage multiplier doesn't make it over 160 armor, because it's calculating the total armor level, and not additional. Anthem of Flame actually is unnecessary because you can maintain AR with "TNtF!", or take "Fall Back!" and make running faster. The burning from Anthem of Flame can be nice, though, but I don't care for the 1.75 downtime if you've got low ranks. ــмıкεнaшк 13:16, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Vicious Attack

should this be put implace of spear of lightning, can cause deep wound with go for the eyes. Lodgeinator 11:09, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Use what you prefer. If someone is running gfte, yeah, vicious is probably the better choice, but under normal conditions their average damage is about the same (assuming you spam on recharge) --Mafaraxas (talk) 11:12, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
You are running GftE!--UnderImage- (PvP)Gunned 00:45, 28 July 2008 (EDT)
You might, if you're not taking variants. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 00:46, 28 July 2008 (EDT)


Could you use Soldier's Fury if you're r7 Luxon (or Kurzick) ? Just wondered, it's a much easier skill to cap and I'm lazy atm --> 09:12, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

You would need to take "FGJ!", but you would only be able to maintain "SY!" for 20 out of 45 seconds. It's better to have Focused Anger+"For Great Justice!"+Aggressive Refrain so that you can spam "Save Yourselves!" without downtime because FA and "FGJ!" are alternated to keep one up at all times during battle. ــмıкεнaшк 10:56, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
Guess I'll have to go for the boss then (and do half of Nightfall) thanks, wasn't sure if it'd work, making a Paragon atm so can't test yet -_- --> 03:39, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

I think with the new update Soldier's Fury is becoming a very viable alternative to Focused Anger + Aggressive Refrain. It has some advantages:

  • Soldier's Fury can be maintained all the time (doesn't happen with Focused Anger)
  • you have higher attack rate (33% vs 25% from Aggressive Refrain)
  • doesn't inflict a condition (Cracked Armor from Aggressive Refrain)
  • you gain a skill slot

The downside is that you gain less adrenaline (maybe "FGJ!" can resolve this, I'm not sure if the adrenaline gain stacks). Anyone has tested this alternative? Shadow 04:32, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

The adrenaline gain won't stack, but you may be able to maintain "SY!" now that they've buffed almost every PvE-only skill. I'll test this out at the Isle. ــмıкεнaшк 09:00, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
Hmm, I'm r8 and it still says 5 seconds of "SY!" I tried going through my titles to see if I had to reapply it, and still nothing... >.> ــмıкεнaшк 09:07, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
I couldn't maintain "SY!" with Focused Anger and only 5 seconds of "SY!", so AR+FA+"FGJ!" is better for low ranks. Also, you'd need another Shout (maintainable one) to alternate with "TNtF!". ــмıкεнaшк 09:19, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

So it's one of the most broken builds in the game...

And ANet buffs it. lol? -Auron 10:33, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes. Misfate 10:35, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
I didn't even notice a difference on "Save Yourselves!" as it still only lasts 5 seconds with my r8. :/ ــмıкεнaшк 10:37, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
I love how instead of nerfing Ursan they just wtfbuffed everything else. - Panic sig5 10:39, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
@Auron: Not really; they rather changed the skill to require less farming, the skill isn't more overpowered now than before. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:40, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Soldier's Fury?

+ a shout (maybe something like "For Great Justice" to get more adren). Wouldn't that be doable for this build? I'd hate to lose the adren, but you wouldn't have cracked armor anymore. Karate Jesus 11:56, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Oops...too late. My bad. Already been said. Karate Jesus 11:57, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
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