Talk: P/W Imbagon

Save Yourselves

With the adrenal gain and furious mod spear and all 4seconds of save yourselves is enough time to get it back fully adrenaled to use again? 204.72.116.44 11:58, 6 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni

You hit 4 times with an IAS up and you recharge SY fully. If you have Dark Fury on a hero (which you should), it takes only 2 hits to charge it. Maintaining the shout is no problem. -Auron 12:04, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Well, with Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger (with less than 15 Leadership because you'd be able to get a strike and a half per hit) /"For Great Justice!", you'll recharge "SY!" after 4 attacks, but 4 attacks with Aggressive Refrain takes four seconds and a half to make. You might not be able to maintain it completely, but it's better than not having it at all. =P -Mike 16:06, 6 March 2008 (EST)

And then dark fury. -Auron 22:45, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Throw in Mark of Fury, and that would be what? One hit to charge "SY!"? lol -Mike 22:54, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Mark of fury is a bad skill. Dark fury isn't. Dark fury conveniently fits on a jagged MM bar and requires only 5 blood. Nobody uses mark of fury because it sucks. -Auron 23:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)

I know it's a horrible skill, but I think it would be funny to be able to charge "SY!" in one attack, and using it about every second. XD -Mike 23:22, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Mark + Dark Fury + FA would only give you 6 strikes of adrenaline. One strike from the attack, one from Dark Fury, one from Mark, and then doubled. Racthoh 00:43, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Does furious spear double before or after spells? -- Armond Warblade

{{sysop}} 01:29, 7 March 2008 (EST)

At Racthoh: Not with 15 in Leadership. XD The bugged cap on Focused Anger was fixed, so now you can gain 150% more adrenaline. And, I don't think that a Furious Mod doubles the adrenaline gained from the hex or enchantment. I'm pretty sure it only doubles adrenaline gained from attacks. -Mike 08:34, 7 March 2008 (EST)

When was the cap fixed? Unless it happened today, it's still broken. -Auron 08:48, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Tried out whatever I was saying, Droknars Courage Furious Anger AR Dark Fury up even with 3 seconds SY can be reapplied again and again.I'm actually kind of dumb i just saw that what I was trying has been tested by Racthoh. :) 74.36.102.126 13:25, 7 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni74.39.73.13 12:45, 7 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni

People play with 15 leadership? Racthoh 15:01, 7 March 2008 (EST)

12, 10, 8? With headpiece+major leadership or wut? Godbox

15:07, 7 March 2008 (EST)

I play with 16 Leadership, just so I can squeeze that extra little bit out of "There's Nothing to Fear!" and for the energy gain. =P Leadership is the most important attribute for this build, after all.-Mike 15:16, 7 March 2008 (EST)

12 10 8, 13 spear 12 lead 9 command, imo. No point in having an odd number in leadership, no point in having more than 14 (at *most*, and you really don't need more than 12), and spear should be huge. -- Armond Warblade

{{sysop}} 16:11, 7 March 2008 (EST)

I don't see how Spear Mastery helps, as when I fight with 11 Spear Mastery, I hit for 3-10 damage, on average. In Hard Mode, I generally hit for 3-6 damage. It isn't Spear Mastery that helps, but the Vampiric Mods, and other buffs (like EBSoH, Order of Pain). I play with 12+1+3 Leadership (which I might reduce to 12+1+1), 10+1 Spear Mastery and 8+1 Command/Motivation. -Mike 18:15, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Upping your spear mastery ups your damage from both normal attacks and spammed SoL's. -- Armond Warblade

{{sysop}} 19:13, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Not by much, but I don't use Spear of Lightning anyhow. I'd rather bring Signet of Return and "For Great Justice!" instead. -Mike 19:56, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Adrenaline boosters cap at +100%. No need for "FGJ!" Signet of Return shouldn't be needed, as you'll be giving a +100 armor boost along with some damage reduction (that means that nothing will practically die). Spear of Lightning is a great damage dealer for Paragons, as it has a relatively short recharge, armor penetration, and pretty good damage. --

Guild of Deals 19:58, 7 March 2008 (EST)

"FGJ!" isn't meant to be combined with Focused Anger, it's for the downtime in the middle of a fight when FA ends, and your party might not be ready for the loss of +100 armor. When you play with Heroes and Henchmen 90% of the time, you'll be glad that you bring a rez. That's why, I still think that the main bar should be Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger, "There's Nothing to Fear!", "Save Yourselves!", "For Great Justice!", and a bunch of optionals. With an allegiance rank of 3, you can't afford to use skills like Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!" and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (to a lesser extent) because it'll impair your adrenaline gain and leave gaps between "SY!"s. Also, the notes about pairing this with another Paragon that uses the same build should be removed, because two Paragons with the same bar is a waste of one party member. -Mike 20:13, 7 March 2008 (EST)

I've used the exact bar on here, always with heroes and henchies, since I was r1. No problems. Why exactly can't you use ward honor, anthem flame, and GftE? It takes like a second to use any of them, and if you knew what you were doing when picking heroes and henchies (hint: bring a bsurge and Mhenlo), it won't matter. GftE is the one you should be most certain of bringing, actually; it's an instant-activation energy management skill, and thus what lets you operate through things like Quicksand, Spirit Shackles (I'm not kidding; I've gone just fine through spirit shackles while spamming autoattacks before), esurge spikes, and what have you. -- Armond Warblade

{{sysop}} 20:18, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Droknars Courage and Cyndirs Aegis both give HP+30 (didnt buy both lucky drop and droknar key ^_^). Leadership 12+2,Motivation 6+2+1,Spear 11+1. taking spear down to 9 motivation down to 10 will give u 8 command. I don't have those AL 15 shields or my stats would have more spear but oh well. even with 2 majors I still use only 1 survivor,vitae,and minor vigor. 465 without shield and sword and 525 with both.I can bring a few more skills now since energy is near constant up with SY!Let me know If it could use a different setup or if it's okay. Palin Oni 06:41, 8 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni

Do whatever you like. Most of us would say the benefit of two major runes doesn't outweigh the cost of -70 health, but you'll probably be okay most of the time. --

Mafaraxas 14:12, 8 March 2008 (EST)

I just prefer using a 15 AL req 7 shield so I can get 14 spear and 12 leadership. No majors necessary. Racthoh 14:33, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Spear Mastery isnt even nessacary, the main focus of the build is party support. I run the build as posted on the main page at Leadership 10+1+1, Command 10 & Spear Mastery 11+1 with Mallyx's Cruelty & Shield of the Condemned (Command) & do just fine with no loss to my armour level in cases of Weakness and an extra 10 health due to less runes being used. Selket Shadowdancer 13:09, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

This build is made of too much win.

But I suppose there has to be at least ONE decent paragon build in existence :P --Srakin 69.157.64.199 23:13, 14 March 2008 (EDT)

Paragons did not need PvE skills to have good builds. Racthoh 03:07, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

They do now. >.> -Mike 08:37, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

You're equating nerfed skills with bad skills, which is a bad habit to fall into. That said, I've not seen the latest skill updates. -- Armond Warblade

{{sysop}} 19:33, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

If paragons needed PvE skills to be good I would like to know why people use paragon heroes. Racthoh 01:26, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

A lot (if not most) builds used "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields Up!" which have both been nerfed almost to uselessness. Even though they are Warrior skills, the nerfs affected nearly all P/W builds out there, and I'm sure a lot of people were disappointed. The Motivation line is still just barely decent, and still worth the use on a hero, but if it keeps getting hit, they could potentially ruin the entire class. -Mike 15:30, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Like that terrible build with Spear of Lightning, 9 Spear Mastery, 6 shouts/chants with Signet of Return? Racthoh 17:21, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

Don't even get into a paragon argument, seriously. — Skakid 17:24, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

Well, for PvP and Heroes, the Motivation line is still a viable option for a support Paragon and possibly the only one left (maybe a little bit of Command, but Command is mostly offense-oriented.) Use this with a hero that has something like Ballad of Restoration, Song of Restoration, Finale of Restoration, Signet of Synergy and the former Mending Refrain. Party-wide healing shouldn't be overlooked, but I probably wouldn't run a support Paragon on my heroes or in PvP (which I never did anyhow) unless he used Motivation. -Mike 18:09, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

The former mending refrain? How is it any different from the current one? A single pip of regen? That isn't enough of a nerf to warrant not using it. It's still an amazing skill, what with heroes using it automatically. Passive healing + passive defense = monk henchies can reserve energy for hex/condi removal :)

Anyway... signet of synergy is weak, finale of restoration is weak. Song of resto is decent, but there are better options for hero bars (purification, for example). You don't run a bar full of motivation, you run the general hybrid of spear mastery and whatever else (be it motivation or command). On top of generic stuff, you can run a few more things; Hexbreaker Aria, Aria of Zeal (an incredible motivation chant), and Anthem of Envy. Oh, and don't overlook otherwise-lacking spear skills that shine when combined with Dark Fury; Stunning Strike and Wild Throw. -Auron 13:34, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

When I say the former Mending Refrain, I mean before they reduced the duration, because it's a pain to maintain it now. I'm not saying I wouldn't take it, though. Finale of Restoration is anything but weak when used properly; 75 health per Chant/Shout ending when Shouts/Chants end every 4 seconds or less when combined with this build, and you can apply it to ~3 allies (more if using Serpent's Quickness). Signet of Synergy is kind of meh, but the Paragon isn't a primary healer anyway, and it can come in handy. I wouldn't waste my Elite for condition removal, as Purifying Finale can be enough, and if not, I just put Foul Feast on the MM (who takes Infuse Condition). If I wanted Daze, I'd probably take Awe/Spear Swipe, or just another profession to do it. My heroes wouldn't be fighting without Spear Mastery, but I wouldn't put any more than 2 attack skills on them because I wouldn't devote a Paragon to offense, as they seem lacking if compared to Rangers (who can use Preparations). Then again, the Paragon is a support class. -Mike 14:02, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

That's right, because Paragons can't use preparations. ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ 14:09, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

MMs suck compared to a build with paragons. MMs do two things; raise corpses to act as a firewall, taking any damage thrown their way so the party doesn't have to. With paragons, that's unnecessary, the party can take all the damage and it's still easy to manage. Minions also attack random targets; again, as Racthoh has pointed out elsewhere, random targetting isn't what you go for in a team of paragons. You want to take a single target down quickly, not weaken everything little by little.

Finale of restoration is only good in a team absolutely full of physicals. And I mean like 8 paragons and warriors. Anything less and it's really subpar, and a waste of the skill slot. Same with signet of synergy; you can do so much more with the slot, why waste your time?

And eh, purifying finale is terrible. Conditions are only ever a problem when they're applied to multiple people at once. If a single enemy is using bflash or something, the monk has no trouble condi removing it off. If three eruptions cause your entire frontline to be blinded, then you get to see just how sucky purifying finale is. The low energy cost shows how powerful Anet thinks it is, and I'd have to agree, it's pretty junk.

No, stunning strike can't be beaten. Stunning is weak without Dark Fury, but Awe and Spear Swipe are absolute trash no matter what you do. 10 energy for each and both are insanely conditional. Unless you have an unusually skilled earth shaker war, the Awe para isn't ever going to be dazing the right targets. And if you have said skilled earth shaker war, you probably won't need daze anyway, as the monk will be on his ass until he dies. Spear Swipe's melee range requirement makes it a joke.

Lastly, Paragon DPS is slightly higher than ranger DPS. Rangers can do the glass arrows conjure spike, but it takes all of your attributes, most of your skill slots, and in the end, is still a spike; paragon DPS is still higher, plus they get to do cool things like party support. -Auron 22:17, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

Splinter Weaponnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn 22:23, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

A good MM (most likely using OoU) will benefit the team offensively more than one Paragon, although I agree their targeting is random. For a Paragon that can't completely maintain "Save Yourselves!" (because of a duration of 4 or less), Finale of Restoration can definitely help the team (on a second Paragon). Shouts and Chants will be ending every 3 seconds, and that's 25 health per second on at least 3 targets (with ~15 Motivation). Purifying Finale can be useful when facing conditions being reapplied over and over, as well. The thing about Stunning Strike is that it's Elite, unlike Awe and Spear Swipe, even though those two are less practical, but if I wanted an Elite Daze, Broad Head Arrow would probably be better. Also, I'm sure Spear of Fury will help charge Stunning Strike, if you're depending on Dark Fury. When it comes to attacks, Rangers generally have more effective skills, and much more offensive utility (except maybe DW), and can thus deal more damage, but both Paragons' and Rangers' DPSs are just meh most of the time, except Splinter Barrage. XD Paragons can deal ~50 DPS, but that is against 60 AL foes, and while using a buff like a Conjure. -Mike 22:50, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

A good MM is a hero and it uses Jagged Bones. Lrn2PvE. ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ 22:58, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

When I said MM, I meant one that tries to sustain his minions, instead of bombing. I know, bombing is good, but my MM hero uses OoU to deal more damage with attacks against heavily-armored foes, although I have a Rt/N Jagged Bones Bomber. -Mike 23:09, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

No, BHA is not better than Stunning Strike, for a ton of reasons. One, it misses a bunch; bosses seem to randomly know when it's coming and move slightly then stop to cast again. That slight movement makes the BHA miss and I have to wait another 15 seconds for it to hit. Stunning misses much less often, and recharges faster too, so even if it does miss, I get another chance sooner than with BHA. And lastly (this one's obvious), rangers suck compared to paragons. They offer nothing over what a paragon can do with that slot. Apply Poison? 6 damage per second, weak. Dshot and savage? Fun, but weak. You don't need to interrupt stuff, you need to kill stuff.

Finale and all that is unnecessary. You don't need to waste the skill slot to have random 25 hp heals, because that's what your monk will be doing anyway. SY and TNTF reduces the damage to nothing, and the monk (or monks, if you absolutely need a second one) can just heal the excess, while the paragons who don't waste skill slots on healing can focus on killing. And what is better than song of puri in that elite slot? Song resto for more unneeded healing, while you sacrifice damage slots for purifying, which does a worse job anyway? -Auron 21:35, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

less arguing about random shit on the imbagon page, imo. --

Mafaraxas 23:17, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

I would much rather have stunning strike than BHA when there's dark fury involved. Also, Auron, when you use SoP do you have to micro it much? When I take it they seem to refuse to use it unless the whole party has 3 conditions or something stupid. --Mala

20:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

I've never had to tbh. Was doing gates of madness the other day and tanked eruptions like mad, yet blind didn't seem to be a problem. I'll pay more attention in the future, they might not use it very often. -Auron 21:21, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

They use it as well as heroes use any adrenaline skill. However it's still the best skill for dealing with dazed, blind, and weakness, the three conditions that matter in PvE. Racthoh 22:42, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Alright, thanks. I guess I'll just pay more attention and only bring it when that stuffs gonna be a problem. :p --Mala

13:02, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I have noticed I have to micro stunning. He'll use it occasionally on his own, but nowhere near on recharge. Plus he'll stop to cast AoF on recharge, which slightly slows down adren gain; if you micro stunning he'll do nothing else until he's built up adren and launched it. -Auron 09:21, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

All adrenaline skills work like that on a hero, they won't use it right away which is what makes warrior heroes sadly so bad to use. That and the whole flee from AoE. Racthoh 17:30, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

OMG, MOST IMBA BUILD IN ALL OF GW IS 4.99, LIKE WTF

5-5-5 NOW Antiarchangel NO U 20:53, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Voidwalker and St. Michael ftl--Goldenstar 21:09, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

One attack skill makes me cry tbh. Racthoh 22:42, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

You can put in swift javelin instead of optional, and just beef up the variants section (telling people to remove AoF for any of the cool pve skills like ebshonor). -Auron 22:44, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

I like Vicious and SoL, Swift over SoL when Order of Pain is involved. With as much energy as the build has I like using the fastest recharging energy attack skills paragon's have. Racthoh 22:51, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Harrier's has strong animation — Skakid 22:54, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Woot messing around helps, left Farzi in equipments.Palin Oni 04:03, 25 March 2008 (EDT)Palin Oni

Why would you need non-max shield when you have 9 in Command? ~ ĐONT *TALK 04:38, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

O.o, thanks for fixing., more spear is good, but no need.Palin Oni 05:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)Palin Oni

Saying that a build is effective in every area is untrue. I agree that this probably is one of or the best defensive team-oriented build out there, but no build merits a perfect 5-5-5 because there will be counters. For one, in Asuran territory where there are many Wind Riders, they will maintain Soothing Images on you, and stack hexes on you as well. If you're facing Quetzals, it could be worse as they can copy the Shouts and use them. Also, there are areas where Blind would be continually applied, such as fighting against monsters using Weapon of Shadow, Ebon Dust Aura, and Shadow Song. Many players, and most heroes can't keep up with the constant reapplication of conditions, and the Cracked Armor doesn't help. As with every build, there are plenty of counters, which is why we refrain from using them in areas where these counters are common. By listing Counters in a build, it means that the build is imperfect. It might be perfect for certain areas, but the reasoning for the removal of my vote is that it's effective in all areas. Honesty is worth more than a perfect score. -Mike 17:38, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

I don't think I know of a single monster that uses weapon of shadow, only like two in the entire vabbi area that use EDA (and they die in seconds, not much time to apply blind tbh) and shadowsong is easily killed by simply targeting it and having the heroes wand it down. You can use TNTF on recharge through soothing images, but I agree, it blows; try using one of Racthoh's hex-counter paragon hero builds and you rip through them just as quickly as anything else. I mean, you know they're gonna use hexes, so why not build to counter it? :)

If a player can't deal with the cracked armor from AR, he's pretty bad at the game. Is he trying to dismiss each one individually? Is he trying to use extinguish each time? Really, you can leave the cracked armor on, the paragon still has over 80 AL with a shield and centurions insig.

Basically, the only area you mentioned that is actually a pain is soothing images spamming wind riders; to breeze through it you don't even have to change your build, you just have to change your heroes' builds. I'd say that makes this Focused PvE Paragon pretty universal - especially considering this works in Hard Mode of most places, which is a feat most builds can't touch. -Auron 21:18, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

WHEN I CAN'T SY WAND DPS MAKES ME WIPE! Unless there are physicals around when you're hit with Soothing Images then the Wind Riders really don't matter. Also Shadowsong takes 5 seconds to place, that is more than enough time to kill whatever used Shadowsong. Or, kill the Shadowsong. Bring armor ignoring damage (gogo hexes) for the Quetzals on the other 7 members or something. If there are counters to SY, there are counters for everything you do as a paragon so you might as well bring it. Racthoh 22:28, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

possibilities for flail??

do any of you think it would work to take flail instead of aggressive refrain? i have a problem with heroes spamming their condition removal on me to get rid of my cracked armor condition and it wastes their energy which could be used for when TNTF is not up. some damage does get thru "SY!" and they need the energy for when that damage gets thru. So, if you have alot of adrenaline gain (FA/necromancer order for adrenaline) would it work to take flail instead of AR? sorry for a very poorly written paragraph :)Klomi 01:43, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

You can, you just won't be able to spam SY as much. --71.229 01:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

I guess it would effectively make SY cost 9 adrenaline. If you have a high enough AB rank it shouldn't be a problem. --Mala

06:08, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

To get past Aggressive Refrain's reapplication of Cracked Armor, you could put Foul Feast on an MM or other Necromancer (works well with Plague Touch, Sending, Signet, Contagion and/or Infuse Condition). If you give them high enough Soul Reaping, they could actually gain energy if they're removing more than one condition. I put Foul Feast and Infuse Condition on my OoU MM hero to get past the stacks of conditions. -Mike 07:10, 3 April 2008 (EDT)