Build talk:Team - General Physway/Archive 1

lolphysway.--Digitalfear 20:33, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

No adding silly stuff please

This has been test a lot and...yeah. Someone get to rating this. o.o Cuilan 20:33, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

A lot? It's been used in EVERY area in GW on HM without too much trouble. About the rating, deserves 5-5-x tbh.Digitalfear 20:38, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

It's had over a year's worth of testing. Excluded 20:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

No need for trial actually, moving this to testing...Digitalfear 20:49, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Lose Well of Blood. Get a less terrible rez on the necro. Mainbar an erf shakur and lose armor of unfeeling. Life Guardian 21:13, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Earthshaker isn't mainbar material; only for areas with ridiculously sized mobs, and there aren't many of those. The res is pretty much optional; anything but Rebirth, really. Instead of saying "lose Well of Blood", what would you suggest instead?Excluded 21:24, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

The necromancer has a wonderful rez that recharges and casts nicely. Why would a rit not have Armor of Unfeeling...? Cuilan 21:26, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

no other way to add so many damage packets to a set up that physway.<3. No other team can add as many damage packets than a buffed up physway..gdw+earthbind powered sins > urfshakur here >>Jayson<<< 02:56, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Not if you know how to pull. Life Guardian 02:58, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Copy+Paste

You do a good job at it.--Ikimono...And my Axe! 21:14, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks.Digitalfear 21:24, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Also Build:A/W Soldier's Stance Sin To let your healers sit on their hands for even more ease.--Ikimono...And my Axe! 21:28, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

The sins are very busy with these builds and it's the eles job to do the healing and protection, not the assassin's job. Also, what was copy and pasted? Cuilan 21:31, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

i assume he meant the sin having 75% block... not that an a/w would be healing.. sigh. Akio_Katsuragi 21:34, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

You read things too literally. Cuilan 21:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

reading analytically never got anyone killed ;o Akio_Katsuragi 21:42, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Where that soldier's Stance build may be fine in most cases; it would be poor here, as you are aiming to create as much DPS as possible with these builds. Soldier's Stance would mean you'd have to go 10/10/11 and you'd lack energy to spam as often. Less buffs, less damage, more QQ. As far as I'm aware WotA is the best elite for the job. Excluded 22:04, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

You loose 1 damage. The crit lost is about 4% crit chance (not sure with the multipliers) but it's a negligible amount. Zealous Daggers. 33% attack speed, 75% block.--Ikimono...And my Axe! 23:45, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

It's about compression--WotA maxes out IAS under celerity and only takes 1 skill slot. That means you are free to run 3 PvE skills or whatever else you need behind it rather than just 2. 71.56.32.57 00:12, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

clean up

^ do it. needs an overview, needs clear distinction of what is absolutely necessary and what isn't. needs a clear distinction between what needs to be a human and what isnt. - AthrunFeya - 01:30, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Will give it a shot with my bad wiki skills ;o--Digitalfear 02:30, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

a general physicalway pretty much means well/deletion.--Relyk _talk 02:45, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Going to have to agree with that. Cuilan 03:02, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Too generic?--Digitalfear 03:25, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well there's no point to it since it doesn't do specific high-end areas. If you did that, the article would be split up into physicalways for each area since you can't put that all on one page. Then it would be welled as inferior to other builds that do the same areas which people actually use. Unless it works better, which I seriously doubt since randomway physical is very unreliable in pve (compared to ball->nuke->profit). That's if you want a technical explanation. Mostly it's because general articles are useless to people.--Relyk _talk 04:07, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Suppose we could stick to WotA sins.--Digitalfear 04:10, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sins are always prefered for this and this team build doesn't need to be listed for specific areas if it rolls through them anyway. Cuilan 08:37, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Uh, sorry. I'm terrible at explaining what needs to be done. Basically the article currently looks like a guide into making a physway team and although the dual ele backline is very good, the lack of coherency in the rest of the build lets it down significantly. You need to really decide what in the team build is absolutely necessary and focus on optimising that.
Currently the build tells me that 8 organised players are required (which you'd be exceedingly lucky to find) and that you should only use WotA sins as physicals. When I look at this I think "why are these builds listed specifically?" since any physical (maybe even heroes) would do. The answer is they shouldn't be there at all, really all this build should be is the dual ele backline (and possibly the gdw/earthbind combination, but i'm not sure that's entirely necessary, splinter > GDW). Reducing the number of required human players in any build is generally a very good move, especially when it is for general PvE.
I think I'm going to put this build back in trial and vote wipe it until these things are ironed out (unless anyone has any strong opposition, within reason). - AthrunFeya - 13:27, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

You lost me after 'splinter > GDW', do you actually play Guild Wars? 71.56.32.57 14:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Splinter drops off pretty quickly and isn't so hot when there aren't many foes close. GDW also is used to prevent damage and heals, etc. Cuilan 15:55, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

erf shakur + splinter is still really a better way to go :p - AthrunFeya - 16:16, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Lulz at even questioning that splinter>gdw. Life Guardian 17:14, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yep, as it fits in the nicely compressed ele builds that have the energy to keep casting it. Can't go E/Mo/Rit. Cuilan 17:18, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

No, i'm saying that splinter is better. Life Guardian 17:25, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Then you're either lying or wrong. Splinter may be good sometimes, but it cannot be maintained. The two ERs with an essence will be able to maintain it on the whole party, allowing maximum damage output and a spot of defence too. Try and understand when I say "overkill defence combined with overkill damage." Excluded 17:45, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Kay, with gdw, you output a little extra damage to single targets(3 with a scythe). With splinter and a scythe, you do ~60 damage to 18 targets. With Whirlwind, you would do ~60 damage to 36 targets(6 per trigger of splinter). Lrn2pull and watch the explosions. It's one main reason why erf shakur owns. Erf shakur+crude+whirlwind with splinter weapon can qknock mobs and kill them solo =\ Life Guardian 18:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Learn to kill things really fast, which makes pulling seem like a waste of time. By the way, Splinter activates three times then ends. Whether you use it with Barrage or Earthshaker, silly. Excluded 18:22, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Learn to read the skills. You can't argue that SW is better if you don't even know the function of it.92.30.50.15 18:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

So i herd splinter triggers 3 times for the next 6 attacks. I accidentally counted 2 swings for both scythe and whirlwind, but that's not very hard to achieve on a scythe because eremite's+mystic under an ims is very quick. Also, balling saves tons of time. Life Guardian 18:39, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Also, i have to admit, my proofreading is ftl. Life Guardian 18:40, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Where is this magical Splinter Weapon appearing from? And what would you have the ERs run instead of GDW? Where would the rit get energy from to spam SW? UMAD? Our survey says yes. +20 damage for 20 seconds is rather good, don't you think? Seeing as you don't have to keep re-applying it every 5 seconds. Well, the eles CAN reapply it every 5 seconds; but to the extent that every physical will be under it. So it turns from +20 damage to +80. By the way, Death Blossom is our way of making the foes in adjacent range feel more insecure. Excluded 19:04, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Considering that armor of unfeeling on the rit is a waste, dropping that for spirit siphon and bringing splinter in the optional is extremely effective, and will actually give you the energy to spam Painful Bond. As it is, you don't need 2 copies of GDW, and yet you bring 2. Keep one copy for 2 physicals, and bring an erf shakur+something with a scythe and spam splinter on them. Life Guardian 19:14, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

No spare slot on Rit. Summon Spirits is required, or the spirits will lag behind ALL_THE_TIME. Recharge_time_too_high. GDW>Splinter. WotA sins>Earthshaker for DPS. Conclusion: You are an idiot. End. Excluded 20:24, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Armor of Unfeeling is a must. I can't believe someone thinks otherwise unless they've never spirit spammed, no offense. Cuilan 20:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

I've gone through every dungeon in the game in HM with spiritspam heroes, and haven't used armor of unfeeling once. There's no real reason why your spirits should get agro. You should probably add summon spirits to the rit bar, cuz atm there is no summon spirits on the bar. You are seriously terrible if you think GDW>splinter. Easiest solution is to drop GDW off of one of the eles, replace that with a rez, remove fomf and AoU off of the rit, and put splinter weapon and siphon spirit. Life Guardian 20:39, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

leave a gap for GoS on the eles at least, so you're not forced to use essence in random pve, lol. - AthrunFeya - 20:51, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

^In areas where you don't need essence, you can bond w/o GoS. Waste of a skill slot. I am also amazed at the ignorance of a few people here. Just because the build doesn't ball and aoe spike you try to claim it is bad? How about you actually try it. This team is basically the opposite of tank and spank.

There's a difference between balling and tank and spank. Life Guardian 23:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Great Dwarf Weapon goes with Earthbind. Rapid fast dagger attacks goes with the chance of knock down. Not everyone H/H everything, farms, PUGs, or only plays with guildies. This team set up works and you (any of you) shouldn't assume everyone plays like you. If there are reviews that rate it poorly because of that, they should be removed. Cuilan 23:51, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Having 1 war take agro and ball as much as he can(usually on himself) is the fastest and most effective way to kill shit, especially when using mop/aoe attacks such as db, whirlwind, a scythe, etc. Another point, your team is invincible, why does a kd matter so much? Erf shakur is strong because it has 2 excellent splinter distributors, as well as keeping entire groups on their ass for other chars to explode with aoe attacks. Life Guardian 00:00, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Balling is nice and all, but warriors have high armor which effects the game's AI, balling takes time as players have to wait, not all foes ball, and blood builds don't cause scatter. Cuilan 00:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Taking 10 seconds to ball a group is much more efficient than killing individual spread out targets. It is also extremely easy to make a decent ball by abusing walls(gets all melee on you), or by selecting a caster, touching agro, running back a few steps and then dcing to said caster. Life Guardian 00:09, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

It's also completely unnecessary when your frontline can do 200+DPS -EACH-. Why bother to ball anything up when even an Aatxe, which has some of the highest hp of any normal monster in PvE, dies in less than 5 seconds. 71.56.32.57 00:21, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

So kill 1 foe in 5 seconds, or kill 3+ in 5 seconds? I think balling wins. Life Guardian 00:22, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Alright I'm convinced you are trolling now, +1 internets for you good sir. 71.56.32.57 00:35, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

If trolling=talking sense, then yes, i be trollin'. Life Guardian 00:49, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are trolling. So is the admin. You are all twisted over your love of tank and spank you don't even know what it is; "One warrior balling shit..." Oh wait, that's not tank n spank is it nao? nnonononono.... Another point of synergy you probably didn't notice was that each damage packet someone takes= -4 energy on one of the eles. If the eles run out of energy everyone loses Prot bond and they all die. Again, the spirits are there to lure bigger groups and to absorb more damage packets. This is what the Knockdowns are for. So when you made a point about Spirits not having to aggro, you didn't read why the hell I put one in there in the first place.

What we learned

• To read
• To be less troll
• To proofread
• Understand other people's ideas, instead of going "NOT TANKNSPANK WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF DELETE"

By the way, aren't you supposed to actually try this in a trial or Testing before concluding it's good/bad? Excluded 10:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Choosing to play tank and spank style or c-spacing through PvE isn't case of picking black or white. There's a huge grey areas of things you can do using inherent monster behaviour, which Life would call "balling", though I think that's misleading (since he makes it sound like something that actually takes effort). Have you ever noticed that most enemies run into a group when you step close (before aggroing)? Use that, abuse that. Instead of c-spacing and hoping elebonders, knockdowns and meatwalls take damage, slap on "I Am Unstoppable!" or similar and Shadow Step right into the middle of them. Distributing Splinter Weapon with skills such as Crude Swing and Whirlwind Attack makes it possible to kill the group quickly, with very little effort. This is significantly more effective (on both offensive and defensive sides - and doesn't require an essence!) than having 4 PuGs rawrchopchop their closest target. I'm completely perplexed as to why people seem to only be capable of operating at either end of the pulling spectrum, it seems obvious that killing a number of things together is a better way to play (not only quicker but it means less pressure on healers so you don't need a ridiculous team to get things done) but orchestrated tank'n'spank isn't realistic in general PvE.

About having to test builds before forming an option, I'll quote to you the words of a wise player "It doesnt require a whole lot of skill to rate a build without testing it. The funny thing about computers and machines is, everything does what it says it's going to do. So you look at atts, skills, etc. and you can pretty much judge a build. It's not like judging an athlete or student, where a weak or dumb looking person can suprise you. Weak skills with weak synergy are, well, weak." - AthrunFeya - 12:20, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

So we've come full circle then. Did you know that splinter ends on a single whirlwind/crude swing on the ball? You don't get to keep spamming splinter hits for duration like GDW it ends after X hits. All these AoE attacks you guys keep suggesting trigger separate attacks thus ending the spell. If we really wanted to run lolAoE then we would take a MoP necro but guess what? Through months of trial and error we discovered that under 200+ DPS things die so fast the MoP has no effect much less that not everyone will t-space calls. 71.56.32.112 14:16, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Too general? What about Barrage/Pet shit?

Explain yourselves. We can do Tombs faster. We could do UW faster than them. Excluded 06:00, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

B/P is only used in Tombs. :> Maybe you should turn this into a ToPK build. Because for other elite instances it's slower than SC we already got. For general PvE it's redundant. You got heroes for a reason. --Myotheraccount 10:54, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not area-specific because it can be run effectively everywhere. It's a balanced team, so you cannot compare it to Speedclear builds. It's not redundant in general PvE, because people like me still like to PUG successfully. It's used mostly in HM dungeons and UW. Also the Deep with a 12-man variant. Excluded 12:09, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Not everyone plays with bots. Cuilan 15:53, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

guide

As this has been welled for not been a proper "team" as per the usual pvx stuff and well tag....would this not be better suited as a guide as instead of a build? the concept and information here is solid and usefull....similar to the "discordway guide" i saw a few days back? just a thought >>Jayson<<< 13:50, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

yeah, making a "general physicalway" guide (link: Guide:General Physicalway)would be good. explaining what teams are made of (4-5 frontliners, midline, backline), common skills, common usage, common builds, etc. - AthrunFeya - 14:01, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well, we would make a guide, but you've changed all the things on the page. We don't use heroes yet you've edited the build so it looks like this is intended to be used with them, it isn't. You also removed the assassin builds, which is a massive part of the team. So, do you want us to make a guide on this teambuild, or your variant of it?Roarer 21:43, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Head shot. Cuilan 22:34, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Fair trials

• Don't jump to conclusions.
• Try it three times.
• Don't suck while using it on purpose because you think it's faggy.
• Heroes suck on purpose.
  • A guide is pointless anyway; builds are straightforward. Not even a retard can run a physical in this team and die, they're so heavily protted. Just c-space and get healed by Blood Bond/OoV. You're not going to be able to micro the physicals and melee AI is retarded beyond assistance.
• SO easy to form PUGs with, that's what makes this so unnecessary to bring heroes for melee roles.Excluded 17:06, April 13, 2010 (UTC)