Build talk:Team - Racway

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clean page--Relyk _talk 04:57, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

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tbh. Build:Team - Hero Spiritway: this pales in comparison. Orders aren't even worth running if you're not using Scythes, Daggers or Barrage/Volley. You could put Volley, D-Shot and "GftE!" on both Paragon Heroes' bars. ــѕт.мıкε 22:20, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

...Why on earth would you give a paragon a bow? It's not like you need the interrupts, thanks to having the best daze skill in the game, GftE is completely unnecessary, and Volley means you don't get deep wound or daze (or, to a point, condi removal from spear of redemption, but that relies on what's-her-name being smart). -- Armond {{Bacon}} 22:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I tried to archive it months ago, but lau was like nou. Life Guardian 23:35, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

because i said you could tweak it to make it fine, but noone cba. - AthrunFeya - 23:40, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

im not sure it can be improved to a point where its comparable to other builds--Relyk _talk 00:03, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I made User:Athrun Feya/Build:Team_-_Rathway a while ago, still keeps that defense but adds in aoe damage at the expense of 1 spear (altho i guess you could play with atts to make give the rit a spear). - AthrunFeya - 08:34, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

This needs more domoges (Splinter, MoP, Barbs, Weaken Armor; Curses can be put on your ER Orders). Volley would be good for Splinter Weapon, and it also allows you to get in more attacks per second, thus benefiting more from Orders. Of course, one reliable source of DW is good, so you probably wouldn't run bows on both Paragons. Daze is also nice, but you don't need to Daze things that are dead, and currently, Anthem of Weariness is the only reliable condition source to meet Stunning Strike's requirement (and H/H won't always help, having taken a look at their builds), making it useful once every 11 seconds. Bladeturn Refrain is a waste; a single copy of Aegis@9 with an Enchanting mod (up 34.375% of the time) will match its blocking percentage, on average. Finale of Restoration is also a waste, because "SY!" will never end if the Imbagon maintains it, and if the Imbagon doesn't, it won't benefit from Dark Fury or Mark of Fury. That's why "GftE!" is good (and also for Energy). Overall, the only Hero that really benefits from the extra adrenaline is the Stunning Strike Paragon. The actual attack skills increase the DPS of your Imbagon by 3-4, your Motigon by ~5 (although DW is still very good) and your Stunning Strike by ~9.

Just SoS and Bloodsong will deal as much DPS as any one of the Paragons; the SoGM Rit will double the DPS of any one of Paragons, too. This is all after EBSoH, OoP (if it were maintained perfectly, even though it evidently won't be), and an average armor rating of 80. Of course, the Paragons are still dealing more damage than if they were running Discord, but Spirits are just too good to pass up. ــѕт.мıкε 00:09, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever played the build?

The point of paraway is to deal large amounts of single target damage while also not dying, which paragons do admirably. Spear attacks buffed by Orders takes out pretty much anything, and Daze means pesky monks don't bother you. Anthem Weary is enough most of the time for Stunning Strike, and when it's not you have Vicious as well (even without GftE, two copies of vicious - perhaps a third if you trade out merciless - will get a crit sooner rather than later). If you really really really need another source of conditions, bring a friend with heroes or throw enfeebling blood on the orders. As for useful once every 11 seconds - yeah, that's about how often it needs to be useful. You spike down the monk, you tab to whatever, and every now and then you might want to daze an ele or mesmer or something. It's not like you're going to die in that time, anyway.

I really don't get your argument that dshot is good but daze is not, even disregarding the significantly lower dps using a bow would give you.

I agree that Bladeturn is weak, as is Mending Refrain, and perhaps those could be traded for things like Anthem of Envy/FGJ. I'm honestly not sure what you would put on the motigon instead (perhaps something from a secondary?).

Finale Resto is hardly a waste - it's not like SY is the only chout flying around. In actual combat, you have something falling off you every few seconds, be it Song, Ballad, or Anthem. The imbagon also has FGJ supporting it. Also, how does Finale relate at all to Dark Fury/Mark of Fury?

GftE isn't good by any standard you care to mention. If it's on the imbagon, all it does is detract from him using SY (having GftE up for attacks might provide you a whopping 2-3 DPS party-wide though). If it's on a hero, it's just taking the place of a better skill, since they don't need energy.

I'd love to see your calculations for how much each attack skill increases DPS, along with why said DPS is important compared to the build's enormous spike capability and focus. Furthermore, Dark Fury is amazing for the imbagon. Being able to charge SY in two hits instead of four means you gain twice as much energy, which in turn allows you to use your other offensive skills much more often.

Yes, spirits bring large amounts of offense, but that doesn't mean they can be used for spikes, or provide daze, or give the entire party invinciblemode. Until they can (because, y'know, there are times when your spirits can die, but 206 AL midliners generally don't), the two builds aren't comparable.

I'm not saying Paraway is the best build ever, or that spiritway isn't a very strong build. I've tried both (though, admittedly, I've had limited experience with spiritway), and what I'm trying to say is that Paraway isn't archiveable just because spiritway exists.

-- Armond {{Bacon}} 00:33, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say D-Shot was better than Daze, but using Volley and a bow matches or beats the DPS of a Spear (depending on how many you can hit with it), but also allows for Splinter Weapon distribution, and opens your Elite. "GftE!" will trigger Finale of Restoration more often. Finale of Restoration will trigger every ~5 seconds (using 1/R2+1/R3+1/RN=1/RT, without Song of Purification, though). With two copies of "GftE!", you can trigger it every 1-2 seconds. And, tbh, with so much adrenaline, the Imbagon wouldn't have any trouble handling "GftE!" on its bar (which would be nice with Vicious), although I meant on Heroes' bars. Calculation for additional DPS is very simple: for Vicious Attack, it's 18/(8+1)=2; damage per use/(recharge+activation). The DPS of a build denotes how quickly it can kill (excluding setup and melee running around). The full 2-Man Discordway should, ideally, spend 3-5 seconds per target; this, if you ran 4 Paragon Heroes in a 2-Man+Heroes setup (ideally with GDW or a hard-hitting melee), would spend less. Using Stunning Strike once every 11 seconds means that no one on the team really benefits from the extra adrenaline (either Dark Fury or Mark of Fury should definitely be dropped). Mending Refrain isn't bad, but it's fairly redundant with Song of Purification. Anthem of Envy will do more than any of the attack skills will (although not even close to EBSoH or OoP), so that's not a bad idea. "FGJ!" would be overkill, too, because Heroes just don't spam well. Finally, it's not these Heroes that give "invinciblemode"; it's the Imbagon. ــѕт.мıкε 01:44, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Volley still isn't single target damage, which is what this build is about - did you miss that? Because of that, just like with Discord, actual DPS doesn't matter - spike capability does. Spike capability goes down a lot of the monks aren't dazed and have things like orison for four-digit numbers. And if dshot isn't better than daze, why are you dropping SS for it?

Finale of Resto doesn't need ridiculous amounts of triggering because you won't be taking that much damage. It's a concept called overhealing, except instead of wasting mana, we're wasting skill slots. Anthem of Envy is a superior skill in every way to GftE in this situation.

You can't compare a 6 hero team to this plus more humans and then use the SS numbers for human + 7 AI. Either the paraway group has 2-5 humans or it has one human, and if there's more than one human SS is usable on recharge. You also completely ignored my points about the imbagon gaining adrenaline, and you seem to think that DF/MoF should be dropped with a "hard-hitting melee" on the team, which almost definitely is a warrior of some sort (erf shakurs with crushings for almost 200 come to mind, as do dslash warriors who do > 200 and provide large amounts of knocklock). I shouldn't have to point out the controversy there. Furthermore, conditions don't expire once the SS hero dazes something - there's another, say, four physicals there that put weakness on something when Anthem went up. This is Anthem of Weariness, not Anthem of Flame. Worst case scenario is a SS every 11 seconds. Realistically, it's a lot less until you run into mobs with RC.

I'm gonna go with taking out MoF, though - once the hero hexes something with it, you get one, maybe two hits on it before it dies, so it's kinda worthless. Mending Refrain, again, I think is worthless - 24 party-wide regen is nothing to write home about, especially with Ballad and Finale Resto in the build.

Song of Purification is poorer than I thought (I recalled it healing as well as removing conditions), but I'm still not sure what would be a better option. Having a RC paragon in PvE is kinda cool, since RC is neat but UA is much stronger. Song of Resto is a bit eh because it's not reactionary healing, Defensive Anthem is a bit eh because of all the physicals, Cruel Spear is a bit eh because it means you don't have the extra layer of defense... I'm really not seeing a reason to replace Song of Resto.

It's really the combination of paragons that makes the invinciblemode. A blind imbagon can't SY very well, and SoP clears that up. A blocked paragon also can't do a whole lot, and SS helps prevent that. Even so, SY and TNTF only do so much - it's not technically invincible if you still take 30ish damage per hit, which means sopping things up with Finale and Ballad Resto contribute more than a bit to invincibleness.

-- Armond {{Bacon}} 08:16, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Volley is for Splinter Weapon and MoP, which the build should be using. This would increase both spike capability and DPS. We don't have to continue that discussion, though, because it isn't going anywhere.

I turn spike capability into DPS to see how often a team can spike and how fast things should die without healing.

Yes, Anthem of Envy deals more damage than "GftE!", but keep in mind the time you spend activating (and aftercast) it is time lost attacking. So, with 20 additional damage and 5 physicals, that's 100 damage, but attacking for 50-60 DPS for 1.75 seconds is 88-105 damage, anyway. There's the chance that the foe is below 50% Health, too. "GftE!" always results in a net gain (albeit small), because you don't have to stop attacking, everyone has plenty of adrenaline, and Heroes aren't going to spam it even if they could.

I meant DF or MoF should be dropped; you can't make much use of both. The hardest-hitting player physicals (scythes and superbuffed daggers) don't need that much adrenaline. You said MoF, so MoF it is. The ER Necro would have room for Mark of Pain and Weaken Armor. "there's another, say, four physicals there that put weakness on something when Anthem went up." Weakness would have been reapplied 4 times on the same target; if single-target physicals are attacking different targets; there's no spike capability. This is why I'd prefer Enfeebling Blood (on the ER) to Anthem of Weariness, because it means you can quickly switch targets and reapply Daze. With Awaken the Blood on your bar, you can also get a decent investments in Curses without spending much.

I generally wouldn't use my Elite for condition removal, especially since SoP has a 2 second cast, and will be overkill for many of the areas you play. Extinguish or Pure Was Li Ming would be good for party-wide condition removal, a copy of FF is good, and your Healer Henchman will probably have some, too. SoR isn't that bad; it shouldn't take more than 2 seconds to trigger, and with "SY!" and "TNtF!", it isn't very likely that anything will die within those 2 seconds, unless you're already at ~100 Health or they use huge armor-ignoring damage. ــѕт.мıкε 14:56, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I don't really see how volley and splinter make the build work better overall than spears and splinter. In my experience, spears and splinter work just fine, and in addition, you don't have to worry about the gigantic DPS loss of using a bow. Using Volley just means you're getting all of your splinter charges out of the way faster, which isn't actually a DPS increase unless you couldn't get them out of the way before the splinterbot got back to you.

That's not how you judge spike builds, though. You judge a spike build by how likely the spike is to kill, how screwed over it gets by healing/prot, and how often it can spike. DPS has nothing to do with any of that. If you can spike every second, but your spike has no killing potential, that's inflated DPS. Alternatively, if you can only spike once a minute, but you do lolhueg damage, that's a reasonably useless build too.

In my experience, if you're not actively spiking something when anthem weary goes up, the AI attacks everything, so weariness goes everywhere. That said, having a backup condition somewhere would be nice. I'm not sure EB is ideal, since there's so many other things you could put on the orders + weakness doesn't stack, but still.

Maybe the motigon's elite should be optional? I know there are a few areas where I might want, say, a DA para and a DH monk, or a SoP para and a UA monk, or something like. Extinguish is crap, pure was is... maybe, but eh. And again, the problem with SoR is overhealing. Read the link.

-- Armond {{Bacon}} 18:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr? - AthrunFeya - 17:00, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

from AN

The removal of User:PVX-Siebe's and User:Lania Elderfire's votes is wrong. Look at Build:Team - Hero Spiritway, and (literally) do the math. Racway is a joke in comparison. ــѕт.мıкε 22:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Racway is hardly a joke. It might need to be updated, but it's not even close to a joke. ··· Danny So Cute 22:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

one of the main points with racway which isnt emphasised (because i dont know if its true all the time) is that if you run it youll only need 1 of the healer hench at any time (instead of both like many take with sabway etc). Given the orders and stuff and you can take an extra phy player, the damage is less bad than you'd think (although thats not to say it needs updating). big removed the vote because "only half the team" doesnt account for this additional buffed hench worth of damage - AthrunFeya - 23:47, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Spiritway only needs one hench, is immune to anti melee hexes and enchant strip, and does triple the damage. Life Guardian 23:50, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

yeah, if you dont move between mobs too quickly. - AthrunFeya - 23:52, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

and if you pre-cast all your spirits. ··· Danny So Cute 00:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

K, don't spend the 5 seconds setting up spirits. Instead, take another 3 minutes killing shit with racway. Life Guardian 00:26, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I forgot, Paragons don't have huge DPS. Silly me. ··· Danny So Cute 00:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The 2-Man Hero teams use only two Healers; the Imbagon essentially replaces one. If you ran an Imbagon with the Spirit Heroes, Discordway or Sabway, you'd only need the one Healer, too. Henchmens' bars rarely have IAS, and I've been told several times that H/H aren't very good at melee (otherwise, maybe we'd see a melee Hero in team builds), so they really won't be doing that much damage, even with Orders and EBSoH. ــѕт.мıкε 00:33, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

SoS+Bloodsong deals as much damage as any one of the Paragons (if it never stopped attacking to activate other skills). Perhaps we should move the discussion to the Racway talk page? ــѕт.мıкε 00:33, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that spiritway only needs 1 healer hench. Life Guardian 00:51, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Danny if your comment was sarcasm then I'd say 9 spirits have way higher DPS than Paras. :> Not saying that Paras don't have good DPS though but spirits in PvE have way more. In case your comment wasn't sarcasm disregard what I wrote. ;3 --Iggy 's other account 01:00, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Because the SoS runs Resto. Generally, two Healers or a Healer and an Imbagon is all you need. Aegis can be put on the SoGM's bar for extra prot. With aftercast (except for the last), though, the SoGM Rit will take 9.25 seconds to set up all of its Spirits and then use SoGM. ــѕт.мıкε 01:50, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

The motigon really needs to be dropped. The only useful skill on the bar is finale of restoration, except random single person heals aren't very reliable. If you need condition removal, you can bring ff on the ele or necro orders. the sos utility rit or an mm is better for fodder/utility. also replace fall back with anthem of envy and drop signet of return for optional on stunning strike. No point to flaunt single target damage with paragons, you can easily use discordway with an imbagon--Relyk _talk 12:59, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Why do you attack paras? :D

Why are you hungry for DPS? Paragons dont rely on big dmg, but on survive. I ve done Anvil Rock vanq with racway. I survived under the attack of 12 centaurs: 7 wars, 3 rangers (1 boss), 2 protecktors for 10 minutes. Yes that was very long but I killed them and I couldnt do that with Discords, Sabway or Spiritway. Personally I prefer Discordway, but racway and paraways are good for places with huge amount of healing and dmg. I've also beat grawls in ascalon with that which have big healing. In anvil rock 12 vs 6 - Imo it shows that racway is quite good build. I also think that PvX variant isnt good and it needs some changes. Seizing an opportunity I welcome to rate my new build > 2 man racway. It is broadened version, I ve done some vanqs with that and it reduces dmg completly to zero and gives lots of healing. In same cases it better than Discordways loved so much by you :)--God Kamil 18:57, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Lol, i vanqd eastern frontier with discord for the lulz. Life Guardian 19:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

What proffesion are you? Im para and it was harder for me to do that:)--God Kamil 19:16, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Nec. Life Guardian 19:25, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

With necro job is simple. yuo can take off enches and deal much more dmg:)--God Kamil 21:01, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I kinda forgot enchant removal :< Life Guardian 21:07, April 25, 2010 (UTC)