Talk: Team - UW Physway/Archive 2

I think it wont work :) --GodKamil 20:09, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Explain.--DigitalFear 20:16, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think it just worked :):):):)MinionExcluded 02:01, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Thats a lot of Save Yourselves.pr0adam! 14:31, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

It's to keep Excluded/Minion from dying. Cuilan 15:56, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Incase anyone gets stripped, we have time to infuse, reprot, etc. before they explode via nu3kz. Someone care to finish the copypasta? qq MinionExcluded 16:22, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

How are you going to do 4H?-- Elf-e 17:14, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

I'll write the usage for that in a little. It's pretty simple, though. MinionExcluded 17:21, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Don't think 1 hex remover is enough tbhSharky_talk 22:40, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

O yea I don't really think dark fury is all that needed, think OotV would be a lot betterSharky_talk 23:02, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

If spike damage is better, why are you running dagger chains? :< Life Guardian 03:01, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Because one dagger chain will kill a skeleton, and one chain used by 4~sins can kill an aatxe in one chain. MinionExcluded 07:00, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Right, I'll switch OoV back in. I prefer it too, but people would have asked why we weren't maximizing our damage zzzz. One hex removal seems sufficient; only really need it in Plains, and only the ERs need cleaning. MinionExcluded 07:30, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Be less lazy plox. I was so excited about UWing with this and you went RA. >: --Iggy 's other account 09:14, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

would Technobabble make plains easier?Sharky_talk 05:38, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

And while Im talking about EotN skills how about FH, IATS(I am the strongest), DT(dodge this), YMLAD Ebon wardsSharky_talk 05:41, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Only logical ones I would consider spammable enough would be Dodge This! If you want to run a ward, that's fine, though there'll be alot of downtime and you won't notice the difference, as you'll be killing too fast anyway. MinionExcluded 09:11, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Bonds

If you are bonded by the E/Mo, does save yourselves reduce that damage further? I dont think it does, so it might not be worth it Zedone2 10:18, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

should've read above ^^ Zedone2 10:19, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

It's another layer of defence. If a Dying Nightmare strips someone, Save Yourselves will give the ER enough leeway to Infuse, prot and rebond. Same for GDW. Also, not much can replace it of any worth. MinionExcluded 11:09, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

How about have one sin bring save yourselves + dc, and put ee on everyone - so you can jump around... it'd make the runs faster and can provide a spike heal if one ER drops by accident -Phil

Thought about it before; we had one sin with DC and AoS to recharge it more often, so they could ball, and spike certain things cleaner (i.e. Keeper of Souls) But was proven ineffective in this setup. You lose alot of DPS when not running Ascan/BuH, for not enough gain. It's not a nuke; it's constant DPS. The Overextending always irritates me, because ERs can't heal Parties like Monks can, we rely on Infuse, and OoV/Blood Bond. With a mixed physical team, it would be different- however we can spare 2 seconds to get to the foe with the damage we're packing.MinionExcluded 17:22, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

4-4 split? for all areas aside from mountains they all bond everyone, so they would only lose 2 energy each hit instead of 3 and 4. And Shouldn't they bond themselves so they get an additional 4 energy every cast, vs having an additional 1 energy every 3 seconds. They should have no problem bonding everyone and themselves, maybe thats just me.JackdoesSCs 18:23, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Some retard added the line about not bonding yourself. Would have hoped you could figure that out, heh. We played a bit with 4-4 and 8way bonding, but bonding all 8 is pointless in UW, and would only slow you down when re-bonding and maintaining energy. Bonding all eight is only really useful when in massive mobs, where the extra energy per hit can be the difference between life and death. In UW, it's negligible. MinionExcluded 00:26, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Overall, Terrible

UW Physway HM

Where are the pictures? How am I supposed to do this if you don't explain everything for me?--ArrogantBastard 09:25, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

As in, for someone who has no prior knowledge of UW or a whole team? They can learn through trial and error, then. MinionExcluded 09:33, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Don't see why we couldn't get lots of screens and post a guide... probably a better idea to put it up on guru though.Roarer 16:21, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Screen of end chest or it doesn't work. And in HARD MODE, it will most definitely never work. Welcome to Clumsiness and Riposte spam. --Risus 02:18, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Riposte spam? You must be mad. About the mindblades; they have quite low health since the update and go down quickly. Clumsiness doesn't impede speed by that much. I posted screens previously, but as you wish.MinionExcluded 08:52, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Screen of Dhuum killed. 2:02 so not our best run, but proof that this works on HM. Roarer 14:50, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Comments on Usage

^Would be nice. If anything can be done differently to improve speed, I'd like to hear your ideas. I imagine you could probably make a split or two for Mountains/Pools and Vale. So yes; comments and questions. MinionExcluded 13:15, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think the split we just discussed would be very useful. For people who weren't there ill post it up here: After chamber/uwg/escort 3Sins and 1 ER head off up to mountains to pop the reaper. During this time, the Necro 2nd ER and 2 Assassins do the Vale quest. After which, everyone teles up to Mountains. Thus saving 5/10 minutes or so.Roarer 16:20, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Vote

gogogo

Buh!

is buh really worth it? no one should be below 50% health so its only gonna have at most 1/3 uptime Notorious BW 11:25, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

ERs spamming infuse- you can expect them to be below 50% quite often during a fight. But the uptime in mobs is fine, as it only takes 10 seconds tops to take out a mob. MinionExcluded 12:05, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Monks?

Whar iz da hee-ulz? 94.30.43.217 07:21, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

1/10 --Iggy 's other account 08:55, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Have a go at answering this yourself. Where are the heals? MinionExcluded 08:57, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Is it really reasonable to all of 4HW at the Reaper due to update, or are all the PUG ER Infoozers going to explode and cry in an amusing way? 66.230.102.10 10:54, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Rephrase that, because I didn't quite understand the question. MinionExcluded 14:34, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

I think he means: Is it wise to do the Four Horsemen quest at the reaper due to update (i guess either leech signet or the skeletons), because he thinks pug ER ele's will explode and Q_Q Lยкץ๒๏ץ talk 22:07, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Better than Tweet/Terra/Expway?

The title says it all. Juze 13:00, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

That depends on how you get your "kicks". If you like to clear areas as fast as possible, then no. If you like to waste a minimal amount of time and have fun; kick off the shoes, loosen the tie, etc. Then yes. It's alot more fail-safe, too. The only rocky ground for a PUG would be 4Horsemen I think, but I hope I have explained it well enough for them. MinionExcluded 13:07, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

You trade a little bit of speed for a lot of fun and reliability. (And puggability for that matter)--DigitalFear 13:15, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Much slower than those but much faster for a PUG if you take time wasted on fails and re-grouping a SC into cinsideration. In other words, this is much more reliable than a SC and hence faster, also moar fun. --Iggy 's other account 14:46, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

No its not. A Destruction -> Rupture Soul on an SoS does just as much if not more damage than the 3 sins spamming for 5 seconds. and its pure AoE. So basically you can do chamber + vale + escort about 5x as fast because the MT in terraway can ball EVERYTHING up and you can blow it up. Also you have the SS so don't forget that. And solo sins that split and do areas will always ALWAYS be faster and more reliable than a full team of 8 clearing everything in the mountains and planes to do it. --Risus 15:03, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Videos?

Would somebody make a video tut for sins, maybe? :3 Juze 16:10, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

I'll look into it, you're more than welcome to join us on a run though sometime if you want.Roarer 17:19, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Spam everything on recharge. Cuilan 23:28, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

So, what's the average time?

And also, are guilds running this? Cause I can't seem to find any PUGs willing to run this --(Talk) 17:42, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Not many PuGs about running this, but we are trying to raise awareness. Currently our guild runs this with people off the friends list. Average time is about ~1:45 but we're discussing splits etc in the hope of bringing that down.Roarer 17:45, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Vale done in 15 minutes without cons. :O You also have to start a new run, takes 5-10 minutes to set up. No need for cons if taking Glyph of Swiftness on Emos. Btw, Escort is damn hard to do, everybody dies. What am I doing wrong? Juze 19:21, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

We prefer to use EoC as not only does it speed the party up, it allows the ER's to take 2 more skills between them. Our usual tactic on Escort is to have everyone wait at the bottom of the stairs bar 1 ER or the OoV (quest taker). When the blades spawn we're able to wipe the 3 groups out with ease before the Souls even get close.Roarer 19:26, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you definitely need Essence, so you can maintain ER without the crutch that is GoS. Make sure no one Over-extends; make the sins spam Ascan to cancel Hex Breaker, then the OoV can get Blood Bond down. Refrain from Infuse spamming *too* often; because you'll be soon targeted by the mindblades. Run back out of aggro range when re-casting ER. MinionExcluded 19:43, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

is there a reason you dont use critical agility specifically?--Relyk _talk 21:35, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

You get an extra PvE slot, that is of more damage value. WotA + EoC=33% IAS. MinionExcluded 21:37, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Also, +20 al is redundant because of bonds.Roarer 21:38, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Escort is still too hard, Clumsiness and Migraine kills all the sins and bam, it's over. Juze 09:29, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Nobody should be dying. Are the ERs actually casting? Mindblades aren't that hard to deal with; other than pulling back to cast Ether and throwing down general protection magic and infuses, there's really no thought involved.66.230.102.10 02:29, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

I was also thinking of SoS here, spirits would block the stairs, maybe? Juze 09:30, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

We used to use an SoS spammer, but it's not really required; for some people it would be good as a safety net, though. Could make one sin optional. MinionExcluded 11:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

What about a 3rd EMO or an UA monk? >{CaRnyVaL}™ 17:05, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

And it seems to be a lot better with SoS like it is currently. Juze 14:54, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

profs

could the sins be played by other classes? i dont see any noticeable difference between them and http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build%3AW/A_Enduring_Dagger (with buh! and frenzy instead of flail)Notorious BW 21:43, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

The answer is yes, they can. We regularly take Dervs and Warriors and occasionally the odd Ranger, we prefer Sins due to the high attack speed = more triggers of all the buffs. But any type of physical can be used i suppose.Roarer 21:51, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

how is the sins attack speed any different then the warrior using daggers? Notorious BW 21:56, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

I think he means a generic any/A build roarer--Relyk _talk 21:55, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Sure you can take that build, it looks fine. As far as x/a's go, as long as they've got good energy management then I don't see a reason why not.Roarer 21:59, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

ok then shouldnt we add all the any/a builds as variants on the main pg? Notorious BW 22:01, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

No need. Not that you have to have these exact Dagger builds anyway. --Iggy 's other account 22:54, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone has a sin anyways--Relyk _talk 22:56, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

I think it should atleast be noted so that people dont think those sin builds are the only viable options Notorious BW 22:58, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

go head and add the note then--Relyk _talk 23:10, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

So I can revert it. --Iggy 's other account 23:21, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Orders Variant

Monk primary

[[Order of the Vampire@12]	[[Blood Bond@12]	[[Draw Conditions@0]	[[Blessed Signet@4]	[[Smite Hex@16]	[[Remove Hex@0]	[[Strength of Honor@16]	[[Optional@0]

+8 from SoH and only -4 from OoV. Yeah, less healing from blood bond and OoV, but do you really need it? I also remain skeptical over the Necro's energy management, since it has a -1 energy regen, and there sometimes is a fair distance to walk/wait between fights. Dok 00:10, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

That'll work, yeah. 16 smiting, 9 divine and 10 blood?MinionExcluded 00:13, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, something like that. I don't know how much divine the monk would need; it might not need the full 15 from Blessed. I haven't tested it out. Dok 01:05, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

I was originally thinking 12/12/3. + 4 smiting for casting SoH. +4 for blessed. Though, that wouldn't net the full 15 energy. Dok 02:19, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

this build really needs skillz emo's... and times would be a lot faster if u grab 1 terra to do pools + mnts + pits?

run time

how long is a run with this build?

Build_talk:Team_-_UW_Physway#So.2C_what.27s_the_average_time.3F

Sign comments ~~~~ Juze 15:58, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Monk Variant

I think it would be easier if seed of life as added on one or both of the monks, maybe intstead of spirit bond. Nialiss 16:37, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Note 1: They're elementalists. Note 2: Seed of Life requires Divine Favour to function. MinionExcluded 16:58, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry I ment the other seed heal thing

How could we get more rezzes?

As I have seen it seems to be the only flaw in this build, completely relying on the OoV for res. I'm not quite sure where you could add some in, but I think it's the most major problem. 98.210.8.185 22:37, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

I've swapped out one of the Sins for a SoS "lurer/tank" role; to basically redirect Mindblade attention, Dying Nightmares and the like. Flesh Of My Flesh on it, should be enough as the SoS has a wall to hide behind. MinionExcluded 23:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

or you could just bring rez scrolls 22:06, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

BrBamingo, Cuilan, and Risus

their votes are WAYYYYYY off.--Bluetapeboy 22:58, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

They expect to switch from Perma to Balanced-ish teams and expect to own UW in Hard Mode with unorganised PUGs? It would initially fail as much as any PUG run would. It's mostly down to the experience of the ERs, and the Physicals have to have No Fear. The more aggressive the physicals, and ability to lure well, the faster and safer it will be. Cuilan just hates everything that's OP. MinionExcluded 23:19, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Culian's a narb other's are whorus. Funny how you guys dominate this wiki as far as votes on your builds go. ;p --Iggy 's other account 23:22, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

The build is creative but to be honest 2hr ++ runs are not fun at all plus with a high change to fail(mindblades at escort, planes). Pug sins just rush into every red dot they see, and like posted on top it mostly depends on the button mashing of the Ers.My suggestion, instead of a rit or a 5th Sin bring a Sf perma or Sb monk to tank or just ball the aggro for faster kills. Bring wild blow for Sins so behemoths in mnts go down easier. --brbamigo

Shouldnt be 2h if most people werent running it first time. ;p Tbh an average UWSC won't finish in one conset, maybe in two after failing a few runs. --Iggy 's other account 02:31, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

You can't say the builds are bad because people can't use them. Parties have been formed for two days only, by PUGs. This means EVERYONE knows jack shit on how to run it properly.

Also, when you are the leader, or the only one who knows about UW; You have permission to draw, shout and tell everyone what to do. More communication with your team, less QQing about failing. MinionExcluded 07:57, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Tbh only reason we failed when I played with you was because nobody listened to Minion at 4H. He told people to fight horses closes but no, they had to do it at the tight spot where there got body blocked by Terrorwebs. Don't blame the build blame the idiots. Regardless, everything apart from 4H was easy, at least much easier than SC. People sound like a clueless party won't fail an UWSC yeah right. --Iggy 's other account 11:36, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Should take it up on there talk page.---XTREME 10:11, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

WTF Cuilan's vote? This IS NOT speedclear.--ValeV 13:14, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

They are all from the same alliance, Cuilan just wants to troll. Actually this should be excellent, but a troll is a troll. Juze 13:57, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'd love to try this (and my friend too). IGN: Valev Assasinko.--ValeV 14:30, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Just played with Excluded, one of the authors. Failed during UWG because of rushing and taking control over him. Juze 14:44, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Same shit happened at 4H last time. Nobody listens. Oh and we had a terribad Necro who needs to l2ff. --Iggy 's other account 14:48, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

This is really offtopic. Anyway, my vote got wiped and it's back up in Excellent category. Yays. Juze 14:52, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Not really. People hate the build wfter they made sure to be epicfail at everything. Seriously, apart from Minion nobody really knew what they were doing and I was the only one who listened it seems. ;p --Iggy 's other account 14:54, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Ha, i lol'd. Energy is intense on Necro, especially in Mts with Natures renewal and 5 sins to clean, don't forget about the 4s recharge. Our guild has done this run countless times, infact the only 'clueless person' on the run last night was you.Roarer 21:07, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Not saying I wasn't since I never run this before. :3 But I listened to orders so that I don't do anything stupid. Oh and energy shouldn't be an issue with FF when so much conditions are stacked. ;p --Iggy 's other account 21:42, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

When sins are camping traps, and all going 'moar SoH' conditions can't be removed quicker than they are gainedRoarer 22:22, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Draw Conditions

Even if the necro has Foul Feast he's not able to keep up with this on mountains >{CaRnyVaL}™ 17:12, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

There won't be much behemoths to kill, only at the reaper --(Talk) 17:58, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Right. It's not really a problem. You kill two mobs of Behmoths; two below the Reaper (as he fights them if you don't) and the Behmoths inside the Reaper's Statue. Make sure not to pop him before killing the Behmoths or the excrement will hit the rotating device. MinionExcluded 18:12, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Funny how much influence PvX has on the playerbase. :p

It's on great for two days and half of ToA is running it already. Pretty hilarious tbh.--DigitalFear 20:10, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

True story. DOMINATE PVX DOMINATE THE WHOLE GAME!!!!!! --Iggy 's other account 22:14, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like it. ;p--DigitalFear 22:35, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

players don't make accounts they just watch and steal....---XTREME 22:47, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

What you don't realize is that manlyway originated on pvx, and has made fow the most consistently run elite area for almost a year now. Life Guardian 22:49, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

True story. Hence what I said is true. :3 --Iggy 's other account 23:02, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

I logged on just to see if what Digital said was true. Lmao it is, we even got EXPs already. --Iggy 's other account 22:51, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Told ya. :p--DigitalFear 23:10, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

There's not enough non-assassins. Saw a WoH monk looking for physway. Cuilan 23:17, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Needs more ER. MinionExcluded 23:54, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

ERs will appear eventually. People will l2p this setup too so that they never fail. It just takes time to swap from your normal SC way of doing things I think. ;p I will be kinda glad if things will be done in such a cool way now tbh. :3 --Iggy 's other account 00:13, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'll start doing ER then. :3 Just need a few skills and lots of tomes. Level 20 already. Juze 06:09, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah it's a good time to start ERing now. --Iggy 's other account 09:27, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'd recommend you learn to run ER in physway teams in either NM or some HM dungeons. That's how I got into it. A shit load of Dungeons. MinionExcluded 09:59, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Melee variants...

Aren't needed.

If you're experienced enough to know that most melee builds can substitute for the assassins then you don't need a guide to tell you that.

If you aren't experienced enough to know this, you should probably stick to the ideal builds.

At the most, it should be noted that some of the sins can be replaced with any good melee build [insert link to all working pve builds].

Moreover, I would never bring a dagger warrior over 100b/ES/Scythe. Just because a build "works" doesn't mean it should be listed (should we add Dagger Paragon, Dagger Ele, 100b Sin?...fuck no).

Things I would add to build:

1) AP-MoP substitute over the Rit for experienced/non-lazy teams.

2) 2x 100b warriors for 2 sins.

3) Pictures...bitches love pictures.

--ArrogantBastard 20:14, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

All of the above plus WE daggers is shit, stop messing around on the build page. If you insist on running a physical variant run a real build like 100b or WE scythe. 71.56.32.112 20:28, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, it should be added that the Orders necro needs to get close and draw as many hexes/rupts/aggro in dangerous areas to keep the ER's safer (e.g. Mindblades).

Also, I'm noticing that PUGs are using full consets instead of just essence. Soon they are gonna start complaining about costs so I recommend one of you put glitter and shiny shit around "ONLY REQUIRES ESSENCE" (and anything else important).

Now someone make all these changes to unfuck the build.--ArrogantBastard 23:40, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Why would you want to turn it into a Manlyway spike? =/ It will completely destroy the theme of the build. Besides, current setup is solid enough people should just stop being dumb and listen. For example if people would listen to Minion at 4H and fought the horses in a less confined space, we wouldnt of failed. --Iggy 's other account 00:19, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

The MoP/Sin/Rit Optional slot is fine; If someone can build this for me that'd be good. The 100blades idea is bad, though. MinionExcluded 00:23, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

100b>all--ArrogantBastard 00:31, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cwlg8h&s=6 we have 2 dagger rangers 1 dagger warrior and a war scythe 1 OoP weaken armor nec one UA 1bonder 1 SoS with only SoS and blood song wtf do you need 7 spirits for? for those that say non sins are fail? STR??? every heard of it. btw 2 E/mos ??? waste of space UA with vigor spirit and seed works just as well if not better since you have a relieable healing / res. ER get stripped oh shoot i cant infuse wtf we gunna die!!!

Add me to the list of those looking for more info about what you're doing. Obviously, there's room to mix and max physicals, and scythewar is a superb build as always. Sounds like you're experienced; I'm surprised you would have any issues getting stripped or having deaths with dual ER... especially now that 4HW and Wastes are easymode. What's your monk carrying?66.223.205.33 20:30, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Cool. --Iggy 's other account 15:19, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Well, to get that time, you have applied some SC tactics, removing Shadowform from the mix. I never said anything other than sins would be bad, but they do deal the most DPS out of all the physicals out there. Using OoP over OoV would probably be too risky in PUGs, but it's an extra 20 damage per hit compared to OoV. I've never really experimented with the SoS spammer's build. UA and Secondary ER are very much interchangeable in terms of role. You should explain what you do differently with your Usage compared to the guide, so we can see where the time starts to slip away. MinionExcluded 17:05, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Cool story bro, you got a lower time with a completely different build. Post that time with this build and somebody might actually give a shit. 71.56.32.112 19:04, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Their build works on the same principle, in fact it's almost the same. This can be run with other kind of physicals as well. The guys on the screenie, as Minion told me are from Onyx guild that are part of ToA ally. That means very expirienced SC team where people know what they are doing, unlike most people Minion runs with (no offense, I know they lag ;p). That guy just proved Physway is more than viable so don't be hating him. Also, I was right saying that with non-retarded players Physway can clear UW in about an hour or less but with far less hassle than SC. :3 --Iggy 's other account 19:43, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

First off pull your head out of his ass. Second the builds have next to nothing in common. They ran a bunch of physicals with a slapped together backline and a hackneyed ER ele...whoop de doo so did mobway. For the one millionth time physway is not an SC build, it's apples and oranges to compare the two. 71.56.32.112 21:15, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

You must be autistic. --Iggy 's other account 21:37, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I forgot Igor, you came on a half-run with us and now you are the master of all things Physway. You're right of course, those of us who have been playing it for months compared to your mere days will pipe down now. 71.56.32.112 21:45, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

u mad? --Iggy 's other account 00:16, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Igor; we don't need you to tell us who is a good and bad player. Give us input when you have an idea, of course. But let us get on with what we're doing, and stop throwing around blame, and trying to make me sound like a deity. MinionExcluded 22:23, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I don't like that IP person. He sounds autistic. I'm on his side with this build and yet he flames me for some reason. Makes no sense. Also, I'm not making a diety out of you, but you are good and I see nothing wrong with appreciating people I like. :o --Iggy 's other account 00:12, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well Tom and I know him, and believe me he isn't autistic. The guy knows this run like the back of his hand.14:16,Roarer 14:16, June 10, 2010 (UTC) June 10, 2010 (UTC)

He acts like he is. --Iggy 's other account 23:24, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Need

One more 5-5-Tick vote to get this back into Great gogo! --Iggy 's other account 22:59, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Are you guys interested in teaching some peeps or rather 1 person somewhat be a guide so to speak. i have done a few runs with a couple of you peeps and know this myself but not a teacher my guild is very interested in learning if any of you would like to learn them. IGN-Lord valvoga

Prot...enchant....spam Infuse....any questions?---XTREME 23:25, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

^ What he said. Doesn't take allot to learn. Just maintain enchants, spam and don't be retarded. You should probably ask Minion for more details but as far as I can see all depends on how well you listen to the most expirienced guy. ;p --Iggy 's other account 00:16, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Heh, thanks, but I'd have to point out this team is all down to Elnore Varda, though he seldom plays anymore. Learned alot from him, who I'd say is one of the best PvE players out there. MinionExcluded 00:21, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Can't vote, my vote was deleted, have to wait a few days :( Juze 06:11, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

To the people who hate the build

Just because your group failed on the first day people started doing it does not mean it doesn't work. I find that being able to get far in Physway depends on your group's experience with Physway and build experience, though more than half of it depends on knowing what to do. So stop complaining and trolling and keep trying, eventually you will get further than you did before. In about a week or so Physway groups will seldom fail like almost every speed out there. Nialiss 11:03, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I tried running with two different PUGs to see how they'd do. First time the other ER disconnected; second, we made it past 4HW with a ER who had absolutely no idea what he was even doing.. only to have the party kamikaze itself on the way to Pools. I'm talking people running in random directions and gathering up half the aggro in Plains and the stuff in Pools at the same time. If we could make it that far, anyone can.66.223.205.33 20:37, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I did it with a French guild and they did well on everything except 4h. Failed with full cons and normal mode. Other pugs far worse. Cuilan 21:20, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Aaah the French.Roarer 21:23, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Frenchies srs bsns. I like them though, they are sweet. :3 --Iggy 's other account 00:06, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

lolol

We even got vandals now. --Iggy 's other account 11:30, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

lal--DigitalFear 12:00, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Dramatic

changes everyday. :O Juze 09:00, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Yup. OoP > OoV ;p --Iggy 's other account 10:15, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Changing slowly, but keeping the same "organised kilroy" aspect. Someone needs to add optional Physicals in the corner somewhere; Wars can run Enduring Scythe without AoHM, 100lolz, Earthshaker, etc. Rangers have barrage, scythe or dagger. Paragon... Suck. Dervs with Zeaous Vow attack spamming (ahgain without AoHM). If someone wants to list these and maybe put them on an alternate page with a link? MinionExcluded 10:22, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe just make an optional nightmare then list a few example physical builds? ;p Oh and another thing, I think GDW would be better on the rit and a backup one on the nec so that it doesn't distract the ERs. Thoughts? --Iggy 's other account 10:37, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

No; no one can spam Great Dwarf Weapon as well as the ERs; they can maintain 4 copies each if they spammed it on recharge. You're still thinking with your "SC emo" cap on. ERs can do alot more than spam infuse and Maintain PB.MinionExcluded 11:27, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re-read my above comment. ;p I'm not talking about how well they can spam GDW, it just distracts them from doing other things. No real point doing that tbh. You have a Necro and a Rit who can potentially take it too, rit has spawning powarz to extend it's duration bit too. Also, wats SC emo? --Iggy 's other account 11:32, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but in reality it won't really work. The OoP doesn't have the energy as it's maintaining 4~copies of SoH, spamming OoP, Blood Bond and hex removals. The Rit doesn't even have energy management as it is, and they have to be economical already. People should learn to use the Cancel action; bind it to a mouse-key, so you can trigger it with your thumb or something. If you're casting GDW and someone's dying, stop and heal. It's not distracting; think of it as a powerful protection spell which has a chance to stop foes from retaliating. Also, an "SC emo" is that bonder with nothing but maintainable bonds and Burning Speed. MinionExcluded 11:43, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

What minion said, the nec doesnt have the juice for doin his job, cleaning the phys and THEN maintaining gdw. The rit is cramped and almost riding his regens half the time and cant afford it...and the emos have more energy than god to abuse it on recharge...and i thought cancel casting was simple basic gw skills??, tho i guess todays pve shitters (the discord generation) dont need to learn cancel casting or even where the cancel key is..its escape by default btw :D side button on mouse is a good slot indeed :D *Shrugs..JaysonMaxxFury 11:48, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Necro doesnt have the juice? with CF on and 6+ Soul reaping if you cant maintain Oop DGW on 2 frontlines and SoH on the 4 frontlines your a fail necro or your in a fail team that needs to kill faster, Oop costs 4 energy the rest of your necro skills dont cost jack SoH? 1Xsecond recharge you should gain the energy by then, that leaves you with a FULL energy pool cuase of SR, Minoin you should try the new build before you post it and give advice. Vivre

I wish I could pug an ER that can cancel cast. Q___Q --Iggy 's other account 13:01, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Give them time, they'll get there. Toms been ERing for almost a year, so he's bound to be more skilled than the rest. Have to remember that these new ERs have only been going for a week tops. Doesn't really help with all the mindless assassins there are running about camping traps, over-extending etc.Roarer 14:02, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Right. And this is why we released the "general physway" builds; so people would get into running them in common areas, so ERing becomes easier before going to tougher areas. It got trashed in a week. MinionExcluded 15:14, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

There are already quite allot of ERs now. It didn't take me allot of time to find them today and they were pretty good. We failed on the way to mountains because people can't run through traps properly and aggroed Charged darknesses on top of that. ;p --Iggy 's other account 16:07, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Would the Orders add more than AoHM? Sure, there's no synergy in using both, but if AoHM adds more, why not take it? ...Blood bond? Dok 18:26, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Orders makes good synergy with Aohm for the simple fact as it acts as a nice cover + Aohm does more damage if you dont believe me bring your stacked buffs and attack the master of damage outside gtob Vivre

The Sins

Overall the Bar seems fine but I believe it is missing something, that something being IAU. It would speed up wastes, the later parts of Pools, and Mountains. Could drop SY for it on 2-3 of the sins as 4 copies of SY is too many. I've ran an exact variant of this with only one E/Mo bonding and rarely had a death when a sin or someone got rended, we only had one SY. So overall it should only increase efficiency. JackdoesSCs 17:41, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Wastes is a non-issue, we have never wiped there or struggled to clear it or Pools. The problem in Mountains has more to do with inexperienced sins trap camping than it does knockdown. A more detailed explanation of how the webs operate: When a web is getting ready to cast MS strafe, they will ALWAYS look at their target. They are big and bulky you will see them physically rotate to face you. When they do ditch the MS off to the side. Camping AoE is a beginners trap it should not be happening in high end PvE let alone hard mode. 71.56.32.112 18:59, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

IAU is better period. C space ftfw your frontline should be doing nothing but ganking shit worrying about meatshower or SoJ is stupid,

Traps aint jack, throw a infuse once or twice in mnts and you should not have a problem i dont see why mnts is all that hard for people, only place where you might have a problem should be pits becuase of the "preasure they apply" (FoC WoooT) Vivre

Was saying for wastes, unless you kill them before they do SoJ you will knock yourself down every hit, and i wasn't talking about dryders for mountains, Cripple is the reason for IAU in mountains, for my run as E/Mo it slowed us down by maybe a minute with the nec being snared from drawing cripple. Dryders in pools wasn't the problem either, its Whirlwind/Shock from the charged and the attacks from the obsidians near the queen, they KD on hit. JackdoesSCs 20:39, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

CB will never KD your entire frontline, if they do you have bigger problems. Nobody should be getting crippled in Mtn as nobody should be setting off traps unless absolutely necessary! Adding IAU further promotes careless gameplay. If you are too stupid to avoid traps/MS on your sin you should not be playing UW period--it's too advanced for you. Just because you can sit there and eat AoE because of the ERs does not mean you should. 71.56.32.112 22:17, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

I'll tell you why people fail in Mountains. It's because they walk into the traps, mindlessly all step into the behmoth booby-trap and strip both ERs of their energy. Whether they started with 89 or 150 energy. And you would have thought after all the fails, someone would have realised where they were going wrong. But they don't realise it until they've put the ER's shoes on. It's ridiculous. What people SHOULD be doing, is having a designated "trap trigger" either the Rit can drop their spirits onto it and run back, or a sin can tank them. Either way, kilroying into them with EVERYONE taking AoE damage causes fucking chaos. Damage limitations would be nice. MinionExcluded 22:25, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

@IP guy, you're insulting me off a basic premise that IAU is better than 4 copies of SY with a bonder. The bonder brings all non-armor ignoring damage to 5% of the persons health. SY gives +100 armor or 82.5% damage reduction that goes before prot bond, which makes it worthless unless getting rended, which doesnt ever happen to the whole party unless the bonders get e-denied asap. Nor did i say the whole team should have IAU to prevent KDs on the charged or MS. The main reason for IAU over tons of copies of SY is for wastes. "if the whole team gets KDd by smites then ur bad and not experienced enuff for UW"... Sitting down for 2 seconds for every time you hit, which is roughly 1 second, if auto attcking. Thats a downtime of 66% when SoJ is up. Anti-Cripple is just a bonus. I am suggesting a great alternative to help speed up a PuG run And if I'm still too bad ill give you a screen of me doing UW+dhuum as a balanced group in an hour 28, one of the first 5 runs for my guild. /rant JackdoesSCs 22:36, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

First off, calm down. Second I have done this more than you so I think I know what I'm talking about. We have not once ever had a problem in pools or wastes EVER. In fact those are the easiest areas to clear besides Vale. If you notice SoJ up go attack another target, it's not rocket science. Just because you are under pbond and backed with SY!/Infuse does not give the sins permission to Leroy around c-spacing. This is not Ursan, you need to use your brain. 71.56.32.112 22:45, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

IAU would make the run faster tbh. Sight beyond sight and a wild blow would speed it up as well :o Life Guardian 22:48, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

I have NEVER seen a sin get knocked down in Wastes. And I have been running this setup, with minor variations, for almost a year. The fact is that when you are maintaining Great Dwarf Weapon on all the sins, the Smites have NOT A HOPE IN HELL at casting a 1s Smiting enchantment. They will usually die within one knockdown each, and they only cast when they start taking heavy pressure. We have already mentioned before that Wild Blow would be useful in Mountains, this has been acknowledged and is on the variants list and a skill I bring on my runs. At the end of the day, the choice is rather simple: A gimped build for ease of use, or a more powerful build, with more skilled usage.MinionExcluded 22:54, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

there's really no difference--Relyk _talk 22:59, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Srsly menz the fuck you got 4 copies of SY! ? --Iggy 's other account 23:24, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

I haven't disputed that 4x Save Yourselves! is too much, otherwise I wouldn't have added any variants. We've been running more useful skills like Dodge This! and Wild Blow. Dodge This! constantly adds damage and has a little unblockable bonus when WB is recharging. Wild Blow can also strip Hex Breaker without wasting a hex, but it's meh there. The only place you really need IaU in is in Foundry of Failed Creations, where condition and knockdown spam occurs. I don't like preparing for a specific "brush over" point in a run, just to make it slightly easier. MinionExcluded 00:00, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

OotV Vs Oop

Ootv = cheaper(no need for cultists), life stealing is better than armor ignoring imo Oop = More Spammable(doesnt really matter imo) almost req taking cultist for elite OotV>OoP Sharky_talk 01:19, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

OoP does twice as much damage. Life Guardian 01:25, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Really? from wiki Oop = Enchantment Spell. For 5 seconds, whenever a party member hits a foe with physical damage, that party member does +3...13...16 damage. OotV = Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5 seconds, whenever a party member who is not under the effects of another Necromancer enchantment hits a foe with physical damage, that party member steals up to 3...13...16 Health. where they updated? or is the wiki just wrong? Sharky_talk 03:02, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

OoP is affected by Asuran Scan and BUH. Life Guardian 03:04, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

OoV gives extra lifesteal, which comes in the form of a seperate packet, because it's a different type of damage. OoP's added damage is stacked with the rest of your damage buffs, and therefore will be dealing 50+ damage when all your buffs are active. MinionExcluded 09:41, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

OoP does way more damage because it benefits from BUH and AS. It's also cheaper because of Fervor. OotV is craps. --Iggy 's other account 16:02, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Physicals

Feel free to add more variants :D >{CaRnyVaL}™ 09:32, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose paragon will need one too. Could give them that unblockable anthem elite?MinionExcluded 09:52, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why did you removed the other physicals variants? I put it there so pugs can finally understand that not only sins can do that job :O .I hope u will feel bad when an W/A will get rejected from a physway team >.< >{CaRnyVaL}™ 18:58, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

It was removed because they were terrible. If you want physical variants follow the link at the very bottom of the build page. 71.56.32.112 21:11, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

actually they were adapted to physway the variants on the link are terrible. Why bringing critical agility when u use BU? that's a waste better bring drunken master >{CaRnyVaL}™ 21:32, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

I hate to break this to you but anything other than a sin running dagger spam is inferior to a sin doing it. No one in our teams has run critscythe since November. We run WotA, ES, ZV scythe, WE scythe and extremely rarely a barrage...that's it. 71.56.32.112 00:13, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

i wont bother taking up my invite from minion to come frontline as a ranger then when i gets free time! xD JaysonMaxxFury 00:19, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

What he's trying to say, with boiling blood, is that you don't just need dagger attacks, and giving examples for just dagger chains for different professions is pointless. I'm inclined to agree because it makes the page look messy. If you can make a seperate page and link it, with all the Physical builds you want. Maybe you could make it a "Physical sandbox" and people can add what they like. Then add the link of the sandbox to the Physicals section of the build in this team. MinionExcluded 00:22, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just add some examples for different builds on this page because the usual PvX reader is pretty stupid like in: if a build is not on the page it won't work. I'd also dare to imply those ppl won't bother looking at any external links posted at the bottom. 84.44.143.254 01:20, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Combine orders?

Maybe something like this:

Juze 10:05, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Don't be silly.MinionExcluded 10:07, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

^Roarer 12:08, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

He's from [KISS] what did you expect? ;p --Iggy 's other account 16:03, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

lol, seriously Juze.... u should leave that guild, u will be treated bad by other players... gw racists FTW! xD >{CaRnyVaL}™ 19:02, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

The justification that we shouldn't listen to him because he's in KISS is poor; Cuilan was in KISS-- oh, you're right. They do all suck by default ;) MinionExcluded 19:07, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

ok....

I jus tested this with alliance and a friend. I was ER1, he was ER2. What we found out is: ER2 needs spammable enchantment (if he needs to tank) and ER1 or Er2 need party heal (like heal party, breath of the great dwarf, idk), because at skeletons it's really dangerous. Also, idk how pugs can do it, but it was hard for us. We failed at plains, because elite on ER2 was interrupted. I guess you still need to do a bit of editing on these builds.--ValeV 10:21, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Heal Party is way too slow for an ER to consider taking. Breath of the Great Dwarf has too long a recharge. Feast of Souls looks quite nice on the SoS for AoE heals. As for your failure in Plains; you simply need to run out of the Mindblade's aggro circle to recast ER. While doing that, rely on Blood Bond and Vig Spirit to keep the team alive. MinionExcluded 13:18, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Having just completed a successful run, something's very wrong if you're even facing that threat at 4HW. The assassins should just steamroll everything before they're even hurt.209.112.215.174 10:52, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ritualist

File:Example.jpg if your going to update things you might as well update the rit becuase honestly wtf does it do? maybe try dropping down to 4 spirit

<pvxbig> [build prof=Rt/? cha=12+1+1 spa=12+1][Signet of Spirits][Bloodsong][Feast of Souls][Ancestors' Rage][Optional][Pain Inverter][Spirit Siphon][Flesh of My Flesh][/build] </pvxbig> optional = Summon spirits/cond removal/ hex removal/another spirit/painful bond

I really like the look of Feast of Souls as a Panic button for quick heals, due to the lack of Party-Wide heals on the ERs. I'd certainly give this a go. MinionExcluded 13:12, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Also better on th energies. ;p --Iggy 's other account 16:01, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why not 100Bs??

I was thinking to try a run with 3x 100bs , in this way you save 1 spot , other build dont need huge changes and you can add another different char to heal or do something else.. To max damage of 100b , instead Air of Superiority bring "I am the strongest!" and maybe a self heal instead death retreat..Necro just need Add MOP and Ritualist just Splinter weapon (he have a free spot for skills =) )..With GDW all deal +20 dam + KD,+15 damage from SoH, +20 damage from I am the strongest, +17 (or more) damage from OoP and damage from MOP+Splinter, and dont forget damage from 100b and whirlwind (+ normal attack damage)..this is a lot of damage IMO, and no need chains... Plus, warrior have a large ammount of AL and make them more harder to kill...and for those dont like warrior,they can use Sin too... Light Athena 11:02, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, Why 100bs? all of your damage comes from MoP, what if you have 3 100bs that dont follow pinged target, the mob with MoP breaks aggro or any other number of dumb things, you lose your damage 100bs doesnt do a lot of damage to one target honestly good idea and i believe minion and his group put a statment about this on GWG if you wish to check it out Vivre

mmm no..not all damage come from mop sorry,also from all other skills and from 100b...1x spike with 3x 100b is enough to kill every thing in game...maybe with a single target is hard,btw with "I am the strongest" + hammer + SoH and other each warrior can do a damage of about 14...20 + 15...20 + 5...25 + base damage that is 34...65 damage per hit, X3 warriors..all without 100b+mop+splinter+OoP+Wirlwind...IMO a group of 3/4 aatxe die in few seconds... Light Athena 11:22, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Sins Jagged strike which adds NO additional damage does 60damage with buffs on. + faster attack speed becuase of skills, with AoE=death blossom. yeah 100b+ MoP is great damage but honestly you cant say mop will land every target properly without hitch that the 100b'er can reach or are close enuf to hit the other mobs. as i said good idea but has no single target damage +aoe, also you will always find a fail mop 3/4 of the time Vivre

w8 a sec,we cant speak about fail people..people who cant do their job well fail with this build too..btw warriors deal 93 damage per Hit on single target + damage to all from mop / splinter / 100b weapon that are ~11 (100b) + 30 (Mop with curse=10) + 50 (Splinter with chaneling=15)+ ~11 (Wirlwind rank 7) that mean 93 damage to single target + 100 more damage to all adjacent foes. Light Athena 12:21, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

We have tested the team with a variety of physical builds, including Hundred Blades and a MoP. We found the damage and speed of the run to be lacking even more so compared to a bunch of quick-dagger attacks. Things don't always ball, and things aren't always in huge numbers. Also, people don't always target calls. MinionExcluded 13:16, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

dunno what say, i have tested it with 2x 100b some months ago and was very fast,good damage...btw if mop dont call thats dont mean the build dont work..as i said,bad people are bad with all build of Pxv. Light Athena 13:26, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

It's not a manly spike kthnx.--Digit0lQu33r 13:56, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

but can be,by only change the spikers and 1/2 skills on rest of team..imo is faster and safe. Light Athena 14:29, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

daggers > 100b when your not running free agro without a dedicated tank. Its basically an organised zergway/c+space/ursan 2k10..its more robust, less rigid, less reliant on ball'n'nuke and doest fall apart when mop is removed, when calls missed, or when agro is broken, the usual culprits for scfail. Physway is the antithesis to manlyway and to speed clears, and really doesnt need to be changed into or pushed towards that (manly way has its own pages and variations already! that are top notch for that) This fills a large gap for people who dislike the rigid soloing and heavy splits/party solo style of sc's who want a more involved intra-team experience thats more inline with a 'classic' gw party. plus this is fun as hell! xD Manlyway is epic at what it does, not to take away from that btw. JaysonMaxxFury 15:09, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

My was jus an idea, btw imo warriors have a better resistance than sin for damage ad i said, a warrior with all that can deal a damage of 90 on each attack..I dont understand where are the hard part for a 100b to press T, 1-2-3 ?For me np, i have paragon - warr - sin, so i can run everything,so i dont speaking to force other run 100b...and i must add,that i tried to run FoW builds on UW, and it work quite good...yes,aatxe make physical hits a problem but with some heal its not a big problem, and fow-system is maked to bring down a large amout of mobs in few hits/seconds.

For the rest nothing more to add, i just load one of those bar and play. Light Athena 15:19, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

What Vivre said. --Iggy 's other account 21:33, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

bha... Light Athena 11:13, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

What about scythe spammers?

Scythe=more damage :P and is also AoE, one wounding spammer would speed up the run a bit. >{CaRnyVaL}™ 14:00, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Scythe works fine, great on skeles and in Pits. But they dont gain extra damage from OoP or OotV, atleast in the ToA/meh variant because they bring AohM. JackdoesSCs 14:20, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Scythe=less damage. zzz--Digit0lQu33r 14:22, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

the only way to make scythes viable is to drop Aohm and take EBSoh, the numbers are a little lower, but when it affects the team too, its actually better (math on guru somewere, cant be arsed to grab link) and DOESNT cause anti synergy with the phys buffs. Daggers are preferable, but scythes are most deffo viable (all be it not as optimal as dagger) if skilled up to synergise. JaysonMaxxFury 15:50, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

We often run a ZV scythe spammer without AoHM, because faguildie has no option but to play derv :pMinionExcluded 16:37, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Loves manskirts*--Digit0lQu33r 18:59, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

SS Rits

Spirit's Strength Rits could prolly do the job better, they still using daggers! -Phil

Like I said; add them to a page. MinionExcluded 10:06, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Dying nightmares ripping your SS =/ -- 10:40, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

If you get stripped you should probably GTFO out anyways since you lose your bonds and strength of honor. Basically getting stripped sucks no matter what. --Smity the Smith 11:20, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

But it sucks less to be a stripped Sin than a stripped Rit. --Iggy 's other account 16:13, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Use "I am the Strongest" instead BUH

Imo is 10000000 time better, 2 pipes of energy dont worth keep it because : Asuran scan is calculate AFTER other bonus damage from buffs/skills, this mean Base damage + Skill damage + IAtS then Asura scan Increase all!(here you can check=http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Asuran_Scan). Now lets suppose just to work on base damage + 20% and 15^50 from weapon that mean = (7-17 +20%+15%+25%)+75%= 19.6 - 47.6 damage,with an average damage of 33.6 damage per attack (Without calculate armor) and VS Aatxe Al=105 mean ~15.4056 damage per attack. With skill this damage is higher,sure...but lets see what happens with asura scan + IAtS(RANK 1). base damage (7-17 + 20% + 15% + 14 (IAtS R1)) + 75% = 41.0375 - 64.6625 with an aevrage damage per attack = 52.85 that VS Aatxe mean 24.23. Lets compare, Asuran Scan + BUH = ~15 damage per attack on Aatxe, Asuran Scan + IAtS = ~24 damage(Rank 1 Norn). So It is better use I am the Strongst OVER BUH..If not belive test it by yourself on Isle of the nameless Vs Armor 100 training. Light Athena 12:09, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Only thing ur forgetting is that BUH increases your AoE damage --Smity the Smith 12:24, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ehmmmm so? IAts affect AoE too.. Light Athena 12:39, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It effects attacks, not the AoE bonus damage from death blossom. --Smity the Smith 12:41, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just tested,true...Btw +10 damage from AoE dont worth +9 damage (Rank 1 Norm) from each attack of chains,incuded Death Blossom that mean +9+9+9 on that target with Rank1..IMO..Light Athena 12:49, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Buh is easily 100% maintainable with 2 emo's and spirits that are often at sub 50% health.. and a IatS runs out after like 6 attacks. yes you can pre cast it then once per encounter but buh is better all round and easy to maintain with the team... JaysonMaxxFury 13:16, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sure,true that too..btw with IAtS rank 10 Norn,we have more damage on single target..maybe over +13-15 damage on each attack..you loose +10 damage AoE but you gain +x each attack,that is faster..and work on normal attacks too.Light Athena 13:23, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Also, consider how many foes you are hitting with death blossom. It can be alot at times. --Smity the Smith 13:25, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

but each take only +10 damage extra,even if you hit 2000 mobs,they get 50 damage instead 40..with IAtS you deal -10 damage on all foes with AoE but you deal for 8x attacks +9...+x(need calculate it with rank10) damage on each attack with or without skills,and damage from IAtS is added after damage calculation,that mean +x +14..20 always =) Light Athena 13:30, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BUH! also buff your damage from your attacks on your target also? Sounds like you have found that vs a single target IatS is only slightly better, but when you factor in BUH's health regen and it's AoE buff, it appears to be superior. Also, you are failing to account for the fact that death blossom is a dual attack and performs its bonus damage twice, meaning BUH increases its damage by 20. If you hit 5 foes with DB, that's 100 damage right there.

you dont even get two full chains out of 1 shout of iats.. jag, ff, blossom, blossom,jag, ff....runs out. All the while BUH is STILL up and affecting the blossom burst and been added multiplicativly(sp? lol) with asuran scan even at base duration, not been increased. JaysonMaxxFury 13:42, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

With rank 10 you can do 8x attacks with +20 extra damage. It have 20 sec of recharge so it isnt hard keep it up.Light Athena 14:08, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

We've done the numbers with an R10 sin. It turned out that IATS did show a slightly higher DPS than BuH, but that isn't factoring the extra 25% on aoe attacks that BuH gives. I should add that this test was will ALL buffs up.Roarer 14:12, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

The only thing that IAtS have less than BUH is the Hp regen and 25% more AOE Damagem that in number is +10 on Death Blossom (daggers=12),for the rest each attack have a good extra damage.Light Athena 14:20, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Correction, +20 on db. --Smity the Smith 14:22, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Especially now SoS is back in the team, and with ERs infusing, you're very likely to have BuH last longer than the initial 6-10s.Roarer 14:24, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but 25% of 40 is 10 not 20 :\ .Light Athena 14:29, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

I believe hes reffering to the fact that dual attacks hit twiceRoarer 14:30, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

oh ok ok then...then need specificate it because +20 +20 is +40, not +20 ;)..Btw i forget to say that +25% affect all kind of damage,base one and from skills but its not ignoring-armor damage..it just stack with all but then need pass trought Foes Armor..IAtS simply is calculated after damage..for example if you have rank 10,you deal 20+x damage...with BUH! you do x damage + 25% THEN you need apply AL modificatorLight Athena 14:34, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Now, we need choose between 2 thing, i have calculated all this time(all numbers are rounded) : 1)Asuran Scan + BUH = 20 - 48 / average 34 dam per attack / average 16 dam on Aatxe , +2 health pips and +10 (*2) extra AoE damage From Blossom 2)Asuran Scan + IAtS = 55 - 82 / average 69 dam per attack / average 32 dam on Aatxe , -2 health pips and -10 (*2) extra AoE damage from Blossom, BUT Extra damage on single target x4 times (chain + DB (that is Dual attack). you justa have to choose now.Light Athena 14:57, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Your calculations are lacking SoH/OoP and GDW buffs.Roarer 15:05, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Let's just try this instead. In a controlled totally ideal environment the chain by itself was ~76DPS. Chain with Ascan was ~117DPS, chain with Ascan/BUH was ~127 while Ascan/IatS was ~134. This is in a situation where you have no blocking, no kiting and it doesn't factor in AoE at all. IatS does NOT modify the AoE or additional bonuses from SoH/OoP while BUH does. If you include all other damage sources BUH will win every single time. 71.56.32.112 15:13, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

sidenote: surely someone should bring a copy of EbSoh, for the aoe team buffing affect, that affects every packet or non armour ignoring damage. and Iats is a MASSIVE 8dps boost! unless you precast it then you get a boost to 16 dps, that drops back to 8dps(at rank 10) BUH doesnt have down time VERY frequently and affects all your damage sources...pretty much a no brainer.. JaysonMaxxFury 15:20, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

SY! calculates damage reduction before PB does amirite? --Iggy 's other account 16:16, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Why does ER1 maintain 6 and ER2 4

It doesn't. They both maintain 4. BuH>IATS, because it's simply extra damage. Like OoV without the lifesteal. BuH multiplies everything you've already got, and has a much better uptime when spirits take damage and ERs infuse spam.MinionExcluded 18:02, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

ER1 does maintain 6 enchs, 4* Prot Bond + 2* LA.Roarer 20:37, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Why not take BUH and IATS in place of SY!? ;o --Iggy 's other account 23:00, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

rw :)--Relyk _talk 21:42, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

2 copies of SY is enough for pretty much anything you will face :D one sin(or phys with enough energy)should drop SY for EBsoh. and the other could happily take anything in place of SY, tho death charge is recommended in notes. The reason that IATS isnt taken as well is a lack of space an an already cramped bars and skills that already have better effect. JaysonMaxxFury 00:57, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

IATS is amazing with BUH and SA because it makes you deal like 40 more domags with your next 8 attacks. Strong domagz are strong. --Iggy 's other account 09:51, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

variants

some of the better variants need to be on the main page right below the sins. People are retarded. They think the wota sins are the only things that work and no one bothers following the link to guru. Notorious BW 03:32, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

thank you for writing the same shit i wrote yesterday again cuz you didn't ever try to look if someone already wrote it 78.34.235.93 03:55, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

well it seems like no one listened so i figured id post it again Notorious BW 04:10, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

It just makes the page look ugly with all the variants. AMG OPTIONALS NIGHTMARE!!1 Er. It's either seperate page/sandbox/userpage with the builds or none at all. Don't want to get messy, and sins are still optimal. MinionExcluded 09:09, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

I dont see how adding a couple mini skill bars below the sins would make the page any messier Notorious BW 14:42, June 13, 2010 (UTC)