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Critical Hit Ratios??

Ok, I can see why you'd use axes over swords for the unconditional deep wounds...but I don't see how axes are "better DPS at higher levels" Swords have 15-22 a swing, Axes have 6-28 a swing. They both have the same attack speed and the same crit rate. Sword's average damage per swing is 18.5, Axe's is 17. So, if they have the same speed and same crit rate and the Sword hits for more damage per swing on average, how is the Axe higher DPS, even at "higher levels"? And what the heck is a "Critical Hit Ratio"? Reithan 15:42, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

Critical hits do the weapon's max damage at two levels higher of weapon mastery(equivalent to the max damage times the square root of 2). Thus, weapons like axes with high max damage have bigger criticals, giving them higher DPS at higher weapon mastery. --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 15:45, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
+4 weapon mastery iirc. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 15:50, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
Hmmm, 12 Mastery provides about 17% crit rate, and the axe's crits will have a base damage 6 higher than the swords, for a total of about 8.5 more damage on a crit than a sword. over 100 attacks, if percentages are perfect and each gets 17 crits, the sword will have put out, on average, 2064 damage, while the axe would have put out 2084 damage. A small difference. If you break it down to DPS, with a swing about every 1.33 seconds (barring IAS), that's a DPS of 15.5 for the sword and 15.6 for the axe.
Overall I think a DPS difference of 0.1 isn't enough to even warrant mention. I will agree axe is superior due to it's unconditional deep wounds, but DPS isn't really a deciding factor between the two. Reithan 21:33, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
Who the hell runs 12 sword? –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 21:41, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
Well, the lower your mastery the lower the difference in DPS. Even with 16 Mastery it's less than 1DPS different. Reithan 21:43, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
It's still a difference, over the course of a long fight that's several heals. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 21:47, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
It's 10 extra damage for every HUNDRED attacks. Even a small heal's at least 50, so that means you'll need to attack at least FIVE HUNDRED TIMES to even make them spend ONE extra heal. Reithan 21:51, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
You'll attack OVER FIVE HUNDRED TIMES tbh — Skakid9090 21:52, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

Agreed. But even with constant 33% IAS and NO kiting, 500 attacks will take you 445.55 second to do. Or about 7 and a half minutes. If you think 1 extra heal every SEVEN AND A HALF MINUTES is really a notable increase in pressure, I don't know what else to say. I'd at least say if you're going to leave a note about Axes having higher DPS, at least note that it's only SLIGHTY higher DPS. Reithan 21:59, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

When someone kites, it's an automatic critical hit. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ
Yes - ONE auto crit, then you miss a few times before you catch back up. Which is still an overall loss in DPS, whichever way you cut it. Though, in that scenario the axe will take a SLIGHTLY stronger lead - but still a minor one.
Now, I mean, don't panic, I'm not saying swords are better than axes, I'm just saying the DPS difference is very small, and should be listed as such - the REAL advantage to axes is deep wounding. Reithan 22:11, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
lolwut? Nearly everyone (should) run 14 weapon mastery, which makes it more than .1DPS difference. Also: bull's strike critting with an axe isn't too bad either (13%AP ftw) –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 22:23, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
Even with a 16 weapon mastery (22.3% crit rate) that'd be:
  • Axe: 2197/100hits
  • Sword: 2127/100hits
Total DPS w/ 33% IAS:
  • Axe: 24.65 DPS
  • Sword: 23.86
Difference? .79 DPS Still not even a full ONE damage per second more than the sword. Give it up - the DPS is almost exactly the same over time. Axe has unconditional Deep Wound - isn't that enough??? Reithan 23:24, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
When hitting the enemy "FIVE HUNDRED TIMES", that's nearly 400 damage extra. Also; as grinch said, when they're kiting you always crit. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 23:27, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
Anyway, this discussion isn't going anywhere, I'm just going to wait for someone else to respond. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 23:28, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
Whenever someone is moving and you strike them, you instantly deal a critical hit. An axe critical (28 times square root of 2) is much larger than a sword critical (22 times square root of 2). Now, let's move that concept into real world gameplay. Let's say you're a warrior and you're slamming a monk in a GvG match. A monk is not going to sit there and let you build up your adrenaline so you can spike the shit out of him. What he will do is kite resulting in less frequent, more powerful hits but impeding your adrenaline gain. Now what is better in such a situation (which is essentially the situation that you, as a warrior, will be operating in almost constantly)? Combined with unconditional deep wounds and more powerful spikes, axes are the de-facto in PvP for a reason. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 02:11, 30 September 2007 (CEST)

Actually, at 16 weapon mastery, swords do 25.59 dps outside of frenzy, 38.39 when in frenzy. Axes do 29.35 without frenzy, and 40 with frenzy. That's nearly a hundred damage difference per minute when in Frenzy. It's only 64 damage difference per minute without Frenzy, but still significant. More importantly, axes are better spikers. DPS doesn't kill people. Big criticals kill people. --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 00:33, 30 September 2007 (CEST)

u quoted frum ensign u nub. FrenzyPunjab 01:47, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
Who's ensign? Reithan 01:48, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
r u being srsly? FrenzyPunjab 01:49, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
if you don't know, he has possibly the best understanding of how this game works. seriously. he knows basically everything from DPS, critical hits, and everything. he's the one that came u with the whole critical hit chart thingy on GuildWiki. FrenzyPunjab 01:51, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
Ensign arguably understands the game better than any other person(including the devs). --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 01:55, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
Ah - thought it sounded familiar, lol. Reithan 02:29, 30 September 2007 (CEST)

If Ensign's so great in his understanding of the game, why's quoting from him a bad thing? Either way, as noted above both by myself and several other people the DPS difference between sword and axe is, even if notable, NOT the biggest reason to choose axe over sword. I think that should be explain a little better in the guide. Reithan 17:52, 2 October 2007 (CEST)

i was just joking around when i said that. and one of the main difference between swords and axes is this: swords can sneak under PS and SB on normal attacks, making it an ideal pressure weapon. axes, on the other hand, are more "spiky" and often go over the 60 dmg mark on autoattacks. there's not really any reason to take axe over sword in general, it depends on your build type and the current meta. usually axes are preferred, though, because they have a much higher spiking capacity. FrenzyPunjab 00:19, 3 October 2007 (CEST)
DPS isn't the only reason, but it is one of the biggest. If you wanted a warrior with pure utility (shock or rending, bulls strike, a run skill) and decent spike power, you would go for axe - because on top of the utility stuff that swords and axes do equally well, the axe does more damage and can fit a better spike in fewer skills (axe spike skills get plenty of +damage, sword ones don't). -Auron 00:21, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

I like axes because you don't have to sever/cripslash->Gash. — Skakid9090 00:22, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

i liek swordz bcoz they look cool FrenzyPunjab 00:31, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

RA/CM/AB Builds

Been playing around with a lot of the builds listed here on PvX as well as trying to create new ones, and I'm having a lot of trouble with them. The problem I'm having is the warrior doesn't have a lot of "front-loaded" damage because of adrenaline-use. Most good damage skills the warrior has take at least 3-4 swings to get into, even with adrenaline increasing skills and/or a furious weapon. The extra armor is good - but without any really good self heals, condition or hex protection, I find the character getting killed before it can really bring any good damage to bear. Most the time I just get spiked by some ranger of caster for like 100 damage and -10 degen and get dropped within a few seconds, before even being able to use any of my worthwhile skills. I'm sure this has a lot to do with the disorganization of RA/CM as well as the just pick-up team atmosphere of AB (usually). Even with an organized team in AB, you seem to get seperated from your team a lot, and without teammates to support and be supported by in a coherent fashion the warrior seems to get ROLLED by most other classes. Am I missing some key feature of the class that should be preventing or mitigating this? Reithan 17:52, 2 October 2007 (CEST)

Warriors do have a lot of frontloaded damage. It's called c-spacing. That is meaningful frontloaded damage. The only thing that's better for frontloaded damage are dervs, which have issues with downtime of forms and lack of skills like Bull's Strike and dblow which allow you to do more damage by shutting down attempts to shut down(i.e. by kiting or with defensive skills), and some gimmicky casters(i.e. 1-2-3-4-5-6 sin), which have nothing but front-loaded damage so they're useless for X seconds after their spike. --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 22:46, 2 October 2007 (CEST)
Explain unto me your magic of c-spacing. If you just mean "hit c,spacebar after you build adrenaline wailing on some other target first." then, that's the whole problem I was talking about. Yeah, it's a fabulous spike - but it takes time to pull off and you have to spend that time in someone else's grill. 9/10 times in CM or AB I was dead before I could get a full adrenal charge to pull off a good spike, c-space or not. I ended up just pushing buttons as they lit up, because if I waited to be strategic about it, it'd never happen because I'd be dead already. Reithan 22:56, 2 October 2007 (CEST)
No, I mean that warrior autoattacks themselves do the best sustainable damage in the game(except for dervs). Also, warriors are relatively hard to kill, compared to most things. They've got high armor, making them take little damage from autoattacks and eles, they've got a speed boost, which helps to get away, they've got a pretty leet heal(when not fighting a ranger(and even then, unless they're cripshot, you can probably get a heal sig off if you duck behind a wall)) in Heal Sig, they almost always have a snare of some sort, and they can do their job fine without needing a secondary(which means you can easily slot MTouch). If you really want to warrior without needing adrenaline buildup, run a Steady Stance W/D or a Shove/SoJ-Crushing hammer spiker(hint: go with the first one unless you're Yue). --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 23:09, 2 October 2007 (CEST)
Yeah, I know warriors have theoretically the highest sustainable DPS. And some of the best spikes, too. Problem is, bringing it to bear. Even with a speed boost I'm usually hit 1-2 times on the approach, usually 1 of which is a big degen or anti-warrior hex/condition, so I'm hurting big by the time I even get to the target. Then I have to spend my time building adrenaline before I can bring my best skills to bear, which includes most of the good knock-downs or cripples, so a lot of times the target just kites away, though Bull's Strike is helpful here if I have it on my bar. Add to that the fact that while I'm just swinging to charge skills my opponent is still firing off their best attacks at me and if I stop to use Heal Sig, I'm now at -40 armor and not charging adrenaline anymore.
I've seen them work great with teams where they have a monk healing them, or are just running knockdown/pressure to assist front-loaded Ele or Sin spikers, but solo they just seem to die before they do anything impressive. As for Yue - well, I don't really know who that is, I'm not big into the cult of celebrity, though I assume, through context he's touted to be god-like warrior player? It seems to me that a good build for a warrior would just be a bar full of stuff to keep him healed and clean of conditions/hexes with just a snare and autoattack. The attacks are great but even with 100armor warrior just die too quick.
As for the noted 'bar of stuff to stay alive' - I haven't figured that build out yet... Reithan 23:19, 2 October 2007 (CEST)
As a warrior, you really need one thing: Healing Signet. Just remember- Healing Signets are like condoms- they're free, you should always carry one around, and they save your life. Other than that, just Plague Touch or Mending Touch for condition removal and you're good. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 00:05, 3 October 2007 (CEST)
I had purge signet & heal signet in a build and even those 2 weren't that effective. The only thing I've found to be effective in keeping a warrior alive long enough to do much of anything: Teammates. Other than that, the 2+ seconds it takes to use heal sig are usually all it takes for the enemy to do more damage than heal signet fixes. Reithan 00:11, 3 October 2007 (CEST)
The warrior was never meant to be a wtf pwnge killing machine. It has high armor for initial damage mitigation but nothing more. Of course, having teammates is key. That can be said about any profession. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 00:14, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

I'm more talking about the arenas of battle listed in the header for this individual discussion. RA/CM/AB(usually with pickup-group). Yeah, team support is key for any good effort and every class benefits from it, but I can take out with an E, Rt or N in AB/CM and fry at least 2-3 enemies before I go down, with the W, I'm lucky if I even moderately annoy ONE. Reithan 00:17, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

Try Build:W/D Steady Stance Warrior. It's pretty easy to run and has solid survivability. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 00:29, 3 October 2007 (CEST)
Does "Watch Yourself!" really make that huge of a difference? — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 19px 01:30, 3 October 2007 (CEST)
If you're expecting to be targeted, yes. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 01:33, 3 October 2007 (CEST)
People apparently just LURVE targetting me when I play a warrior. I get dropped so fast that when I actually kill something sometimes I just sit there for a second before I realized they died and not me. — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 19px 01:35, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

In RA try using a furious spear to build your adrenaline from a distance, this way you won't get targeted first and youll be able to build adrenaline for your WTFPWNED skills. 70.48.54.167 07:48, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

chiizu's Pressure for Tykes guide

Any objections to me copy/pasting or linking it here? --71.229.204.25 00:05, 21 November 2007 (CET)

Er. Grinch, could you copy/paste or link it there? :O --71.229.204.25 00:10, 21 November 2007 (CET)
I would need permission since it is copyrighted. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 00:13, 21 November 2007 (CET)
kk --71.229.204.25 00:20, 21 November 2007 (CET)
Make your own, chiizu's doesn't mention everything, since it's not completed.
It is completed I think. He just didn't need the third post, that mentions all of the basics of high end waring. --Ibreaktoilets SignatureTab Moo 08:34, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
It's not completed and it lacks really big parts you sorta always need to know. —ǘŋƐxɩsƫ 07:39, 3 January 2009 (EST)

update

some of it is pretty outdated--Relyk IkeR e l y k 04:47, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Definately. I might work on it later if I'm bored, even though not many people would probably care anyway.--TheHunger 20:49, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Nvm, is this page protected from regular edits?--TheHunger 20:50, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
It is, since the guide became a huge mess with several different editors. You can send me the stuff and I'll edit it in for you if you want though. Tycn 06:34, 3 January 2009 (EST)

Wait, is it locked? This must be at least a year old, why is Watch Yourself mentioned? D: Rickyvantof 11:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I was intending to rewrite the PvP section... about one and a half years ago. I might just get around to it if I have the time. ~ Tycncookiesig Tycn 14:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

thinking

[1], [2], [3] I suppose. That's one per weapon attribute. Defy Pain is also popular for warrior tanks and scrubs who can't keep alive.. From Tactics prolly Glad Defense if intending to farm melee's. ---Chaos- 12:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry about satisfying every attribute. Just throw in the stuff that's really popular or class-defining. It's meant to give a flavor of the roles this profession is expected to perform. - Panic sig7 12:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
WE Scythe it is? --- VipermagiSig -- (contribs) (talk) 12:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
(EC)Then it's still those suggestions but without Gladiator's. I don't think we have a "Great" vetted Defy Pain build here, as most people who post those are just awful players overall. I could make one for areas that require tanking, and if having a zealous axe it'd prolly take care of what the WE one does. Viper, it could well be added although I don't think many people use it. ---Chaos- 12:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
It's more common than ES and WE Axe, for sure. --- VipermagiSig -- (contribs) (talk) 12:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
the purpose of WE can anyways be taken care of by a zealous axe, WWA and Cyclone. So DSlash, Scythe and a to-be-made-great-DP build? Or do we want Defy there? ---Chaos- 12:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec)You can just cover all elites that are commonly used in PvE. WE, Triple Chop, Dslash, Defy Pain and of course Earth Shaker. Rickyvantof 13:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Holy Trinity of PvE for warriors are WE (scythe), ES, DS I think reason why should be clear enough for all of you. --Anonimous. D: 13:48, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

fair enough. ---Chaos- 13:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I use we axe to spam dw and ymlad and the extra armor, the scythe puts out more damage anyways though with its uber buffs--Relyk 00:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

PvP section

It needs updating due to the nerf of Primal. It's still used, but no longer completely dominates the Eviscerate bars. I'd do it, but I don't pvp much. Toraen 20:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, what other information is needed to get this out of stub? Do we just need to flesh out the sections on the usage of each attribute? I think we were trying not to overlap too much with GuildWiki/Official Wikis' guides on warriors and primarily focusing on meta builds/skill choices. Toraen 23:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Not a stub. But it does need updating under the common builds section. I've been waiting to update the guides until the mAT. I might work on it this week. - Panic sig7 23:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Also Warrior's Endurance is no longer used since it's been nerfed. 86.24.115.34 20:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I updated stuff. Fix whatever I screwed up. Toraen talk 20:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

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