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We Need Your Help

We have tons of work to do and I would ask for some help specially with replacing old skills/attrib's template-like things into PvXcode. There is more then a 1000 builds that needs to be changed and I can't do it all by my self while working on other important thing for this site. What needs to be done:

  • Replacing old skills/attrib with new ones
  • Manual on how to use PvXcode
  • Manual on how to post new build, including use of PvXcode with sample template
  • Overall FAQ that will explain very basics of this site. GCardinal 23:04, 5 May 2007 (CEST)
Can anyone start on any of the task above ? GCardinal 21:01, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
I can work on a manual on how to post a new build easily. I'm assuming you also want stuff like Usage and Variants to be explained in the manual. I should also probably tell people how to make a link. -(єronħ) no u 21:29, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
And please add manual on PvXcode to that as well. Its important that all users use it or we will constantly have to convert it. GCardinal 21:48, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
Wait a minute, isn't that already being done in: PvXwiki:Style and formatting? I guess it isn't a "manual" per se, but it certainly outlines the process. DE Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 22:34, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
I thought I saw one somewhere, but I figured I just remembered the one from GuildWiki and just knew how the new thing worked. Is that linked on the main page? -(єronħ) no u 22:55, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
It says nothing about PvX Code, PvX Decode, PvX Convert. Nothing about restrictions those extensions come with, what kind of info they provide and how to use them. Manual on both how to use as a reader and as a writer must be provided for users in easy to understand format and that has all futures of the site. GCardinal 22:57, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
Sounds kinda like you want that page expanded, because making a new page would be somewhat redundant. -(єronħ) no u 23:01, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
Well there is a lot that can be done. The one we have is just a solution for not having a dead link if you ask me. Take a look on what WoWWiki has done: Help [1], Template [2], FAQ [3]. There will you find tons of articles related to how to use WoWWiki. I see no reason why we can't have at least 20% of what they have on our site (about our site). There is a lot of stuff that could be done. I hope that everyone wants this site to grow and not only be a backup of builds from GWiki. GCardinal 23:11, 22 May 2007 (CEST)
So let me get this strait, you want a manual on how to use the PvX Convert, the Decode, and just how to use PvX code in general? If so, what is classified as PvX code in general? -(єronħ) no u 00:08, 23 May 2007 (CEST)
I want Help:Contents to have information about:
* Our site, what we do, why we are here, what we have to offer.
* How to use our site to find builds and how to use them
* How to add new builds and how to use PvX Code, PvX Decode, PvX Convert.
* How to edit build, list of all policy we have here, how to enter discussion and so on.
* How users can help in developing of this site, what project we have going at the moment and so on.
* Ideas for Help page can be found [4], [5], [6].
* All information that can be help full.
Many of those must be written by admin but all users can help. GCardinal 00:22, 23 May 2007 (CEST)
Oh, must be written by admin. In that case, could the admin post the link to the pages here so I can try to help out. -(єronħ) no u 00:31, 23 May 2007 (CEST)
No no, not must be written by admin, all users can help. It just admins have (maybe) greater understanding of all things on this site. however anyone who got some time and want to help are free to write. gcardinal 00:33, 23 May 2007 (CEST)
Is it possible to copy GuildWiki's Editing guide over here? Maybe by way of a database dump to avoid copyright issues? --Hhhippo 21:34, 23 May 2007 (CEST)

Copyright issues

Thanks to User:Auron and great help from administrators of www.guildwiki.org we was able to restore history of all builds. We hope this will solve the issue and end any further discussions around it. Copyright page was also updated PvXwiki:Copyrights. gcardinal 04:41, 22 April 2007 (CEST)

Gcardinal I checked out the history on a few builds and it all looks good, nice work. And thanks to Auron and Fyren for arranging the history dump. -- BrianG 07:23, 22 April 2007 (CEST)
And Gcardinal's hours of testing with histories :P -Auron 07:46, 22 April 2007 (CEST)
Aww, I was going to be fancy and figure out how the other wiki I know ripped pages and histories at the same time from wikipedia so we could do it here. :P Jk, very glad the problem's solved. Armond 06:07, 23 April 2007 (CEST)

Add an intermediate category?

What about creating an intermediate category. On my though there is too many good build in "unfavored" and somes not so good in "tested". Something as "Best builds", "Usable builds", "Unfavored builds" would be fine. We already are using this system in the french wiki so that if you want to translate and adapt our templates just ask i will give you all the necessary explainations.--Ttibot 19:23, 22 April 2007 (CEST)

That is exactly what we have in mind, it will be done. gcardinal 21:20, 22 April 2007 (CEST)
Ho, cool ! ^-^ --Ttibot 00:11, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
I just have a few questions. Is EVERYONE from gwwiki comin over here? and is the vetting system going to change? Ni 02:07, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
We sure hope that many people will join our Wiki and we will do our best so they will stay here. Vetting system IS going to change. There will be also advanced but very user friendly and native rating system so it will be easy to separate good from bad. gcardinal 02:19, 23 April 2007 (CEST)



Alright, thanks. Last question. When are we going to be allowed to start posting untested builds? 74.225.230.114 02:22, 23 April 2007 (CEST)

Also, an idea for making posting easy is to put a "build template", "mini skill bar" ect. button on the toolbar, so they can press it, and then a syntax will go into the chat box and they can fill in all the required information. Ni 02:26, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
Perfect idea! I was sitting here trying to find a solution... you arr the man! Thx :) will get back to coding now and see what I can do gcardinal 14:53, 24 April 2007 (CEST)
Ahh no... tested and I think we will have to do it other wise... but great idea gcardinal 14:56, 24 April 2007 (CEST)

Useless templates?

Template:ArmorFunctionNavBox
Template:EliteSkillLocationsNavBox
Template:FactionsHenchmenNavBox
Template:HeroesNavBox
Template:NightfallHenchmenNavBox
Template:PropheciesHenchmenNavBox

Are these going to be used? I thought you were going to link to GuildWiki for non-builds content? There's a bunch more here.

Correct. There is tons of templates we dont need. But it was a pain to import them one by one, so I imported all. gcardinal 14:39, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
Should the unneeded templates be marked for deletion or left alone?--Sefre 15:11, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
If they're kept they'll need to be properly attributed to their authors. But if they're useless they might as well be tagged for deletion; easier than hunting down article histories on GuildWiki.
I'll go ahead and add delete tags to ones I think we don't need in a build wiki. Make changes if you need to Lania Elderfire 18:48, 23 April 2007 (CEST)
Nuked those, will work on others in CfD. Armond 16:06, 24 April 2007 (CEST)
Nuked all the Ds in Candidates for Deletion because I was bored. WTB nuke bot/one-click delete/faster school internet connection. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 18:06, 24 April 2007 (CEST)
See Template talk:Archived-build. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 18:17, 24 April 2007 (CEST)

CfD is really hurting. Nuked all the Fs because I was bored again. Schoolwide tests all morning that seniors don't have to do ftl. Shame CfD doesn't have a monk :( -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 20:05, 24 April 2007 (CEST)

Js and Ks were short. Still bored for the record. Qs, Xs, Ys, and Zs were done a bit earlier by yours truly, as well. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 20:20, 24 April 2007 (CEST)
Finished taking out bits of A-D (including other templates). Finally, lunch. So far, CfD has lost A-D, F, J, K, and Q-Z. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 20:49, 24 April 2007 (CEST)
I remember starting the delete spree by clearing A-C :P -Auron 21:35, 24 April 2007 (CEST)
Knocked out the Os and the Us. DE Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 00:44, 25 April 2007 (CEST)
I added a few delete tags to pages in Category:Templates/Notices that wont be needed for builds, some were trashed earlier but a few still remain.--Sefre SefresigTalk*Cont. 00:50, 25 April 2007 (CEST)

Speed

Just wanted to ask you guys on how this site feels for you ? Is it faster or slower then other wiki's you visit ? MediaWiki is extremely heavy and hard to run script for any kind of servers so its best to compare wiki to wiki in this kind of tests. We are hosted on a cheap hosting but they have a few things that makes it perfectly for media wiki, specially things like max DB size of 4gb.

Anyway just wanted to know how is the speed and if we need something faster. gcardinal 10:23, 25 April 2007 (CEST)

Except for Bresnan(my internet provider) crashing in my local area a few minutes ago I haven't seen any problems. Speed seems like most pages--Sefre SefresigTalk*Cont. 10:42, 25 April 2007 (CEST)
I did think it was a little slow, but nothing major. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 20:15, 25 April 2007 (CEST)
Getting the same problems again. They only occur on my school computer, where there's horrible internet access and around 75 people trying to get online at the same time. Don't worry about the speed. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 22:10, 25 April 2007 (CEST)

anon postings

when anons post on this site, they are greeted with a request to key in a password. I understand the reason for this, and I don't object to it. But, it's confusing that the word is always shown in uppercase but to key it you must use lowercase. Can something be done to make the case usage consistent? At least state that it must be keyed in lowercase so that noobs have a clue how to proceed.

Of course it will be done. Thank you for reporting this bug and it will be fixed very soon! And I tried to make it more fun by using words from gw skills, but it is boring and annoying I know :( gcardinal 20:40, 25 April 2007 (CEST)

Builds to check

There is many builds that contains errors like deadlinks (not linked to gw:), links that starts with |Something and so on. I did a small search and from my estimate there is around 800 builds that needs to be checked but those listed here are almost 99,9% certain contains some kind of errors:

Took care of that build page redesign, that was left over from when we redesigned the build page, and I've deleted it. -- BrianG 00:31, 27 April 2007 (CEST)
I looked through many of these builds and many of them seem to be premade builds, unfavored builds, or build stubs. Can we not agree to delete all unfavored, premade, and stubs? This will make cleanup and management of whats left that much easier. -- BrianG 19:15, 28 April 2007 (CEST)
As I understand it, the beta testing time is where we don't delete stuff unless it's absolutely not needed. And once again I recommend moving everything into untested once we get up and running. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 22:20, 28 April 2007 (CEST)
They contains errors after my bot, and those must be fixed. gcardinal 09:22, 29 April 2007 (CEST)

Removed deleted pages. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 22:05, 30 April 2007 (CEST)

Guys we have to get working on those builds. Nothing happens to builds they are full of errors and not even builds listed here has been fixed... GCardinal 08:06, 3 May 2007 (CEST)

Builds working in hard mode

Just an idea, maybe we need to mark builds that does work in Hard Mode ? gcardinal 12:32, 28 April 2007 (CEST)

Heh, good idea. Maybe a little icon in red saying HM? Ni sigNi 15:32, 28 April 2007 (CEST)

How cool would it be if we could hax the CSS or whatever to get hard mode builds to have [HM] next to the page name? So, for example, we might have Build:W/Mo Uber Leet Wammo, with a page name at the very top being Uber Leet Wammo [HM], and in Category:Hard Mode builds. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 19:04, 28 April 2007 (CEST)
Okey I will look into it, thx for idea. gcardinal 01:59, 29 April 2007 (CEST)
Just make a new template would be easiest. Rapta 21:53, 29 April 2007 (CEST)

Cleanup

How about doing a minor cleanup before 1. may ? There is many categories that holds zero value and have only useless builds: Complete cleanup:

Partial cleanup:

Just want to know what you guys think about it. I think all builds in list above must be deleted. Just want a confirmation, I will delete them my self when its confirmed. gcardinal Gcardinal-signature {{sysop}}

Just to help you gcardinal, and I'm not making fun of you in any way, but to help you tih your english a little bit, when you want to say something is something, but there are more than one somethings, use are instead of is. Just so you know, I'm glad you can speak more than one language. I tried to learn French in school for three years, but it didn't work out. So good job, and good job with the site, I'm going to be on here more than GW now.

and I did it again Bluemilkman 19:07, 29 April 2007 (CEST)

Heh thanks Bluemilkman :) Originally I’m from Russia, leaving in Norway studying Swedish and Danish, so English comes in last place. But thanks for your advice I will try to keep it in mind GCardinal 06:58, 1 May 2007 (CEST)
I definitely agree with the deletion of the above mentioned builds. -- BrianG 00:32, 30 April 2007 (CEST)

I was just wondering if you could save the foundry team one, unless of course someone knows a better build I can use. Bluemilkman 03:51, 30 April 2007 (CEST)

Foundry will be kept. It works well, is not unfavored, and just overall kicks ass. Cardinal, I'm loving the new signature. Going to delete the above mentioned builds (and fixed the links so they link to the category instead of adding this page to the category). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 20:07, 30 April 2007 (CEST)

Nuked the first two categories, will do more later. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 20:45, 30 April 2007 (CEST)

Silly question that's likely too late to change anything

If this is basically a build wiki containing mainly builds, and most if not all other content is to be referenced from another site such as GW or GWW, why do we have a build namespace? It looks like almost nothing will be stored in the main namespace at this point. It seems like it would have been less confusing to have skipped the GW use of the build namespace, and instead of having builds named something like "Build:W/Mo Generic Lame Wamo" to instead just name them "W/Mo Generic Lame Wamo" leaving them all in the now mainly empty main namespace.

If the main namespace isn't used for much of anything, should we just protect that entire space so that we aren't constantly moving builds created by people who don't know any better from there into the build namespace?

They all have build in front because the files were transfered from guild wiki, and based on the many builds I don't think there will be many people willing to move all of the builds to another namespace.--Sefre SefresigTalk*Cont. 00:17, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
They could have had the build namespace stripped off during the transfer itself. It's not hard to modify an import script to strip off a specific namespace reference. But too late now we're stuck with leaving them or a manual move campaign or a dump and reload.
It would help if the "Build" namespace was searched by default. LordBiro 10:57, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
Special:Preferences. -- Nova Jirouji-Nova -- (contribs) 22:23, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

New Vetting System

I think a great deal of discussions about pros and cons and details of different vetting systems can be made obsolete by implementing a flexible build search engine: New users who just use the standard settings will get a list of the best builds, with some standard definition of 'best'. Whoever doesn't like this standard can modify it for his own list, without needing to change any policy. For example, you could set your own threshold on the percentage of favoring votes a build needs to be shown, you could decide if you want to use this percentage or one that's weighted according to the voters' ratings, you could make your own voter rating like 'show me all builds that User:XX likes', and so on. The three systems proposed so far could easily coexist within this framework.

Replacing the old good/bad (black/white) system by a continuous scale (or even more than one) might hopefully also cool down one or the other flame war. The goal would not any more be to get a build 'vetted', but rather to get a good description of its usability. The only decision that has to be made by a wiki-wide policy and can't be left to each reader, is under which circumstances a build should be completely deleted. Here I would propose to keep the threshold for deletion quite high. In general, bad builds should be marked as such but left accessible for people who decide they want to see bad builds. Even if all the voters think the build is bad, it might still be possible to learn something from it, it's description or the discussion.

I'm currently working on a search script that runs locally and uses some of GuildWiki's user archives as database. It works quite well so far, but it will need to be included in the wiki to be large-scale usable. Changing the database to be PvX wiki would be trivial, but so far there are no discussion pages, that is no test results with the builds, so not much food for the engine. Is there any plan to put the original discussion pages from GuildWiki up here? --Hhhippo 01:26, 2 May 2007 (CEST)

I was sort of thinking a search tool could work in that way, it would definitely solve some of the build vetting issues. We could have voting, as well as statistics of builds like "most page hits", and everyone could choose what to filter by. Certain people might only want to view the newest builds, some people may only want to view builds rated over 80%, etc. The question is, how difficult would it be to set something like that up? -- BrianG 03:27, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
Yeah that is also what I was thinking about, it is so vital to split beatwean black/white... It not that hard but will take a lot of time. But it is absolutely needed. GCardinal 06:28, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
That certainly sounds useful. The thing is, though, if we keep unfavored builds for too long, it clutters up our bandwidth and makes searches give huge results. If you want to keep an unfavored build, either make a note in your userspace, jot down its good points on a piece of paper, or just copy and paste the whole thing into your userspace. (That would mean that the searcher function would have to not automatically search userspaces, of course.) -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 18:36, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
Armond, yes I agree, we should decide on a delete threshold. Anything below a certain percent (20? 40?) would be deleted after a certain period of time. As for whats left, the user will be able to choose the threshold he is interested in, so if he wants a short search result he chooses >80%, if he wants more results he searches >60% or something. -- BrianG 06:06, 3 May 2007 (CEST)

I don't think it would be hard... Make it search for builds that contain Template whatever... not that I know ANY wiki coding, but... Oh, and where should we ask for features? Such as {{Subst:}}--Frvwfr2 03:46, 2 May 2007 (CEST)

How do you mean, features? -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 18:36, 2 May 2007 (CEST)

I spelled out the idea a bit more at User:Hhhippo/BuildSearchEngine, taking into account some comments. Maybe we should continue the discussion there. --Hhhippo 21:57, 2 May 2007 (CEST)

Consensus vs majority

"One again, people will not agreed, they will VOTE. Each user will have 1 vote to place it on any policy he likes. Policy with most votes will win and we will use it." -- Gcardinal at PvXwiki talk:Percentage Favored Vetting.

Alrighty, since the guy saying this is the same guy that said "And as long as I work 6-12 hours a day and spend alott cash on this site my word will be the last one", the above statement becomes important enough to deserve a discussion on its own. Everyone should be aware of that decision, since it's going to regulate how PvXbuilds will work. Chances are that on the sites where each of you is coming from things used to be run differently (GuildWiki, GuildWarsWiki, Wikipedia, they all do not use majority votes to decide important issues, but use consensus and discussion to do so).

Is everyone comfortable with that way of running the site? --Dirigible 21:33, 2 May 2007 (CEST)

I for one am not. If I remember right, the United States government uses a 2/3 majority in the House and the Senate, not just a simple majority (at least for most important things); we also must have a higher standard than simple majority for things like policies. I'm also uncomfortable with his ideas on voting for policies, and we're still waiting for Bureaucrat status. To be frank, it looks like this wiki is starting to lean towards something close to a dictatorship. Recent events on this wiki have raised my eyebrows and made me reconsider some things I thought were facts on this wiki. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 21:54, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
A vote winner is probably the only way to establish vetting policies. In fact-based wikis like the others Dirigible mentioned, concensus can usually be reached on the basis of available evidence, although it can take quite some time to discuss to everyones satisfaction. In a opinion-based wiki such as this one, concensus is several times harder to reach.
But i do see some problems. First, when choosing between more than two choices, it's entirely possible for one option to win a vote and still have under 50%, so it's not really a majority winning. This can lead to the second problem with vote-based communities which is the triggering of re-votes. If someone doesn't like a result, they do minor tweaks and call for a revote. A policy is needed to define how often and under what circumstances revotes are permitted. You don't want to block out the option entirely because if a voted choice proves troublesome then the community may want to revisit the decision, but too frequent of revotes can cause chaos.
I agree with Armonds thought, about recent events, and eye raisers... I did join 3 days ago, but still... This one policy causing a standstill.. not good. --Ranger-icon-smallfrvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 22:09, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
Armond, all wikis are dictatorships, no way to avoid that. GuildWiki had Gravewit at first (and then Tanaric once Gravewit decided to not get involved directly), GuildWarsWiki has ANet, Wikipedia has Jimbo Wales; these are all people whose word is the final one. This isn't about the top-level, this is about what comes below that. This isn't about the safety mechanisms (which is what those "dictators" are), this is about the normal gears, how the wiki works daily. That's what's changing.
161.88.255.140, I think you're missing something. In his quote above Gcardinal isn't talking about whether voting should be used for builds; he's suggesting that voting must be used even for deciding on policies.
  • If you accept voting as your means of decision-making on the wiki, you're giving up consensus.
Basically, encouraging voting instead of encouraging consensus turns the process of decision-making on this wiki into a beauty contest. People sitting around the catwalk, watching the ladies strut their stuff, and then they vote on them.
Here's how wikis usually work: Someone posts an idea, another guy posts another. Then everyone works on whichever of those ideas seems more popular, merging good stuff from the less-popular policy, while adding even more new ideas, tightening up content, until the final product is good to go. Yes, it takes much longer than a poll, but it also results in a better product.
Voting is about 51% of the people forcing the other 49% to put up with something they don't like. Consensus is about everyone working together to make sure that whatever is being decided on becomes the best it can be, taking into account the desires and needs of as many as possible.
  • If you accept voting as your means of decision-making on the wiki, you're giving up meritocracy.
Now add to this that the majority may very well have chosen the worst option possible (the ratio of idiots to geniuses is unfortunately not a happy looking one). Scenario: Family of 7: two grandparents, two parents, three kids. "Do we skip the entire meal and go straight to the jelly pudding?" Two possibilities:
Voting: grandparents and kids vote yes, parents vote no, a total of 5:2. Everyone skips the meal and eats pudding.
Meritocracy: the parents threaten the kids with extra chores, and throw a "shame on you, nice example you're giving the kids" towards the grandparents. Everyone eats their beans and they finish all the meat before getting to eat their pudding.
Which of those options is the best one?
Not only doesn't the majority always know what's best for them, but I'd dare say that most of the time they make the wrong decision. By giving the majority the power to decide instead of those more capable to take a decision, you're giving up thi place to the (statistically) uninformed/uneducated/unsophisticated.
Consensus and meritocracy, that's what is getting lost here. Make sure you're all aware of this. --Dirigible 23:02, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
The problem with Builds on a Wiki is that there will almost never be a consensus. Rapta 23:07, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
Once again, this isn't about voting on builds; this is about voting on policy. --Dirigible 23:18, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
I fully understand that, and my original reply still applies. And as I pointed out, voting has zero to do with who has 51% of the vote, it has to do with which single option has the most votes, which can be LESS than 50% in a 3-way or more option vote as I already pointed out. Please read my post, as you obviously only skimmed it.
From your statement "In a opinion-based wiki such as this one, concensus is several times harder to reach" it sounded as if you were talking about voting on builds and not policy etc; my apologies if I misunderstood. The rest of my post still stands, though, I still see voting as having issues far more serious than having to re-vote every once in a while. --Dirigible 00:44, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
I see where you got that now. No worries. My comment actually can apply to both build and policy, although policy was what I meant to discuss. As build vetting is based on opinion, any policy that defines the vetting policy would likewise be an opinion of the best way to rank items that cannot be easilly ranked or measured.
(edit conflict, written after frvwfr2) I think the problem divides into three parts:
1. How to run in the first days.
2. How to decide on a build policy after the first days.
3. How to decide on policy changes in general.
My suggestions:
1. Allow submission and discussion of new builds, but wait with the evaluation (counting votes, put into categories) until 2. happens. This way people can use the time for testing builds.
2. Consensus would of course be nice. But we need a policy, stagnation is not an option. So in this special case during the startup of the wiki voting on a policy could be the second best option, if consensus can't be reached in finite time. (Because of the same special case I would agree to grant GCardinal special powers in the decision on how to proceed. After all, he could have activated an initial policy already before letting anybody else into the wiki.)
3. Difficult question. If you have a brilliant answer, you should write a new charta for the UN or a constitution for the EU instead of wasting your time here ;-) Seriously, I don't know. Should be discussed, at some dedicated place, but that will take some time. So first 1., then 2., then 3. --Hhhippo 23:14, 2 May 2007 (CEST)
While a vote can be called to assess community feelings about a proposed policy, no vote can ever be considered binding nor, unless unanimous, indication of consensus. I found this while looking at the proposed policy page. So is this a majority, or a consensus? I hope the former, but if it is the latter, no policy would have ever gotten passed on GuildWiki either. So I'm assuming Majority. --Ranger-icon-smallfrvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 00:33, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
The statement by GCardinal is neither majority nor concensus. What happens in a 3-way vote? There are at least three competing vetting policy drafts. The votes vould easilly split Option 1: 40%, option 2: 32%, option 3: 28%. In this vote, option 1 would win, even though the majority of 60% voted against it, but were split on two other options. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.88.255.140 (contribs) .
"...if it is [a consensus], no policy would have ever gotten passed on GuildWiki either..." ← believe it or not, almost everything on GuildWiki (with the notable exception of the Builds section) was decided on with exactly that, consensus, not with a majority vote. Same with GuildWarsWiki, same with Wikipedia (see meta:Voting is evil and Wikipedia:Consensus). --Dirigible 01:28, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
Judging from admin behavior I witnessed on guild wiki I think about all the policies were enacted by a admin stepping in and enforcing his opinion on it. The build wipe over there proved tha consensus doesn't work. Many people were against it and it still was enacted because top admins supported it. Now Gcardinal has control of this not only from a admin position but from a funding and ownership stance. While I respect him for that and all he has done I will say that I believe his theory on enacting new policies is seriously flawed.--Sefre SefresigTalk*Cont. 01:51, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
Main reason why I'm not supporting consensus is quite simple. There are 3 proposals at the moment, one got posted just today I think. However everyone have gone for 1 single policy saying "YEAH this is the one! YEAH!!!". And let's take a look on other candidates?.. not even near that much of a discussion going on there. Same people write policy, Same people vote, Same people discuss that is not even near any kind of consensus or creating 1 policy of 2-3, its not developing process it’s just a simple YES or NO vote! And you can make me look all bad "ohh he thinks he can enforce whatever he wants" and so on. Well if I wanted I would just write policy myself and enforce it? Main reason why I'm so against just going with what we have now is because it’s so again main ideas on witch this site was created. We all have seen what happens when a few, really very few users gets right to decide for everyone else? They wipe out builds. And this is not going to happen here. We WILL ask people, we WILL make it easy to vote, we WILL get as many as we can to vote and we WILL stand behind the winner. However, we will NOT make a revote if someone doesn’t like something, we will NOT make it into never-ending discussion and we will NOT make it into total mess chaos. As a admin and a founder I can’t enforce policy or change site completely without asking people. However I will protect the process and very basics ideas on witch this site was build. Anyone can write new policy and any policy can be winner of the vote, but the way vote is done is not up to people. Specific voting frame will be described and made available and you will have to “play” inside that specific frame. What ever gets decided inside that frame will make a policy. However there will be no discussion on how that frame, I will decide on it. As we don’t have any working policy now let’s say I will use my word as a founder to make sure that the first building block of this site will be created properly, by asking people and without never ending arguments. And ones again it is up to you to create new policy, so I suggest getting into preparing YOUR candidate. Becouse this is your only shot to make a difference :) GCardinal 06:18, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
But perhaps people have already looked at the other policies and decided they like the one they voted on? I understand what you're saying, but I think it's an ideal situation - and, of course, ideal situations rarely, if ever, happen in the real world.
And, just for the record:
  1. Cardinal does not own the site. He is the founder, but all the contributions were made by individual contributors, who own said contributions.
  2. A vote does not always end in a 51%/49% result. This is an extreme example. Very few votes actually result like this, as I am sure we will see if Percentage Favored Voting is put in place.
  3. I don't see how all wikis are dictatorships. I've never heard of Jimbo Wales, for example, and I've visited wikipedia a fair few times. ANet has barely interfered with GWW (admittedly, they have stepped in to stop random WoW bashing and userpages taking forever to load), and I honestly don't see much non-editoral activity from Tanaric. Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong places, though. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 20:27, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
No one talking about getting 51% to be the winner. If one candidate wins by 1% so be it. It will be the winner and we will implement that policy. GCardinal 20:32, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
*Points to Dirigible's comments at the top* -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:07, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
Armond, did you completely miss the point of that "51% of the people forcing the other 49% to put up with something they don't like"? Don't get stuck on the numbers, buddy, that whole paragraph was about Side A getting their way, and Side B getting zip in these voting systems, that's where the problem lies. 80% vs 20% is somehow better to you? It'd still mean that one person out of five is getting told "our way or the highway". Binary votes are either or choices, which means that something inevitably gets left out. Contrast that with a consensus procedure where compromises are reached and middle grounds are found, where everyone's thoughts are heard and discussed and attempted to accommodate in the main project. The strength of wikis is in the concept of barnraising; a bunch of people working together on a common goal.
And by the way, 51%/49% is not an extreme example at all. Don't forget that in a three(or more)-way-vote it's also likely that the "winner" will have even less than 50% total votes, as 161.88.255.140 also pointed out.
Lastly, if you don't know Jimbo Wales then you simply aren't a Wikipedian, I'm sorry. You may look up stuff on Wikipedia, but you've never bothered to look behind the scenes. [7] "It should be noted that while appointments are generally to specified terms, all arbitrators serve at Jimbo's discretion, and are not automatically removed at the expiration of those terms, but only by the appointment of a replacement or otherwise by Jimbo's will". You'll find statements like that all over Wikipedia's policies, there's no attempt to mask it from anyone; Wikipedia is not a democracy, Jimbo is the dictator (a benevolent one, of course); he's stepped all over Wikipedia policies in many many occasions, and has said (in more or less words) "I'm above the rules, your policies simply don't apply to me" to whoever dared mention that to him. Sysops/bureaucrats/arbcomm members, they all need to follow WP policy, but not Jimbo. And even on the GWW, what ANet says, it happens. It may be subtle but it's there, even in issues much more important than those you mentioned, such as the GFDL1.2+ vs GFDL1.2 discussion, for example. And you have doubts whether Tanaric is a dictator or not? Heck, he's even admitted it himself that it's his role (in the absence of Gravewit)! Don't forget who ordered the builds wipe, don't forget who deopped Skuld out of the blue or who dismissed Gem's RFA. If you really think that either of those sites is a democracy, then you're simply mistaken, sir. --Dirigible 00:22, 4 May 2007 (CEST)

(reset indent) Yeah, what worries me is that it is a straight vote, and it is a winner take all system. Furthermore, with only a short window to vote according to Cardinal's page, that leaves us with very little time to improve ideas, especially considering voting will open very shortly. Sigh, this whole thing may leave us with a weaker policy than we would like. My hope is that this system won't have an enormous effect on the actual outcome, and the Percentage Favored Voting Policy will be accepted since I think for the time being, that it is the strongest policy. DE Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 00:32, 4 May 2007 (CEST)

I am very glad for posts from Diribible. My bad english skills doesn't let me express myself as good as he does, but he does brings very good points here. And I don't want to be dictator of this wiki. Hell I'm from Russia I know quite well what happens when you have a dictator. I truly belive we can do this using democracy and People. It is always a hard way to go, but we just have to try it. And I am sorry for enforcing this vote, but when we even between admins are so disagreed when it comes to policy that solution by discussion is not even near someone has to do something to resolve the situation. Even if it's me and I will be the dictator here. And when it comes to the time frame we can discuss that. I think it’s too early to vote that fast, but many people said that we absolutely must agree on policy as fast as possible. But if people taking part in this discussion think we have to delay it with a few days we sure can do that. GCardinal 07:45, 4 May 2007 (CEST)

Where did the premade builds go?

Where did all those premade builds go? Misfate 05:52, 4 May 2007 (CEST)

Only actual active premade builds are on this site at the moment. After we imported around 3000 builds from GWiki many and many had errors and to limit number of builds and target our effort on working builds they was temporary removed. When new policy are up and running they can be returned on request. Please check out Voting on Vetting Policy. GCardinal 07:33, 4 May 2007 (CEST)

Urgent~!!!

Hi, we have to fix following those pages as fast as possible:

Specially to all ADMINS, there have been a problem for soon 2 weeks with builds that contains errors, we have to fix them as fast as possible. There is many more out there. GCardinal 14:05, 14 May 2007 (CEST)

What's wrong with them? --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 14:06, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
It's that they have red links. I will be glad to fix them as I have an hour or so spare, keep me updated on user talk please if you find anything else. ~~ Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image 14:07, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
SO do we need to upload the pictures for PvXwiki? I'll work on it now if that's what I need to do... At school, but so bored... --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 14:09, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
No pictures, but we do need to properly wikify the links back to GuildWiki. I'm in school at the mo too, ditto Frv ^^ But yeah, I'm going over to the computers section now and I'm gonna grind over the keyboard to fix these links for teh wiki ~~ Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image 14:13, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
I gotta go now... my class ends at 52 after, which is 10 minutes. Good luck guys, I'll help after school if it's not done. --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 14:44, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
Was just gonna unsigned that for ya =P ~~ Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image 14:44, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
Well, I knocked out about half of them, all we have left now is the DOA Team for which I uploaded the images, but for which I have not fixed any of the links yet. DE Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 22:18, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
Done the DoA one. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 11:47, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

Current list is finished, if update is needed remove my lines. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 21:42, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

Flavor of the Month info

I think we should have a page about flavor of the month, coz I'm seeing so many melee players now and so many monks taking frenzied defense it's unreal. It's good coz all I have to do is use backbreaker then holy strike and stonesoul strike for a very nice 360 damage smite, but I think that since this is the best builds source out there (or soon will be once we have our policy) we should have certain sections dedicated to common trends, and common sense stuff like E/Ds in RA often mean a noob ele tank which you want to avoid for the time being. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 15:34, 14 May 2007 (CEST)

Yeh, FotM and other stuff are things we can certainly add later... we could do all sorts of cool things in fact, like having lists of most visited builds and stuff like that. DE Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 17:20, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
Wow, I can't wait XD I mean, flavor of the month would really help people who want to get some more faction, like RA and TA players. I mean, the frenzy monks are becoming a real nuisance now in RA, I'm seeing whole teams get owned because of one noobish monk who runs a skill which results in him taking about 200 damage per hit from SF. Yes, that's right, they use it without prot spirit on. Or is it just that I knock them down and they can then only use stances? Hmm... I knock them down, deep wound them, so they turn on stance, then I smite them for 80/80/80/80... Not a very good build, huh? But I think a FOTM style page saying about common trends and previous common trends would be very useful for things like documentation, historical reference etc. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 17:35, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
Another thing I'm seeing a LOT is the spike sins... You know the ones I'm talking about. --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 20:45, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
If we want flavor of the month we have to make a team that will monitor and write about it. But idea = perfect GCardinal 21:10, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
I'm willing to do that... I'll do the AB team if it gets split up like that. --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 21:21, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
I'll monitor RA and TA a lot. And yeah, you mean the signet spiker sins? They are starting to crop up too. And as for FotM, we should mention what builds are being commonly run, and their more ideal counters, such as taking a wammo with smite skills to kill frenzied defense on a Mo/W, as they won't expect that from what would appear to be a 'noob'. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 10:59, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

No, I mean the shadow prison-Tiger's Fury-BLS-TF etc... Look at tested pvp, A/W Shadow Prisoner or sumthing. --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 12:03, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

Nah, it never was a FotM as such, more a Flavor of the Nightfall Assassin. First BoA, now it's tiger stance or in my case flurry since I gain more energy from that and it recharges faster. Continual 50% IAS? TYVM that's mine. No real need for expose defences, but it helps. As for signet spiker assassins... Seen a fair few of them in RA. I also wanna document some regular combinations used in the arenas. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 14:17, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

Page has been made ready for when we have the people to contribute. It is here. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 14:25, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

Move it under PvXwiki: or something. Rules how to update MUST be made before anything can start there. GCardinal 14:43, 15 May 2007 (CEST)
Roger, it's now going under PvXwiki: Flavor of the Month. Correct? '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 14:52, 15 May 2007 (CEST)
I just made a massive change to it. Check it out. And check the discussion page too. --User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 22:41, 15 May 2007 (CEST)

Interested in having a bot?

I've written up what kind of stuff the bot could do on my user page. Like it says there, by no means am I an expert or a brilliant coder, but I have experience running a wiki and running a bot on that wiki. For example, the bot can be used to slap untested on all the builds after we get our new vetting policy, if that's what we want to do. Right now this is just an idea - to implement it, I would have to make a new user (I propose PatBot), admins would give it bot status, and you guys can leave messages for what you want me to make it do on the bot's talk page. Right now I'm thinking of stuff like fixing the interwiki links (Profession to Profession). --MasterPatricko 13:33, 17 May 2007 (CEST)

Deleting templates

Just a quick question: how do I go about getting rid of excess templates copied from GuildWiki? Should I just slap a delete tag (delete template) on them? Is this something I should even be thinking about? Thanks. --MasterPatricko 17:03, 17 May 2007 (CEST)

Define excess templates - I thought we got all the ones we don't need (short a couple I re-created for personal use). But yeah, just put a delete tag on them and an admin will look them over. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 20:19, 17 May 2007 (CEST)
You did indeed get all of the excess templates that were properly categorized ... but there are a ton more that were apparently never in Category:Templates ... stuff like monster skills (eg. Template:Exploding Spores), formatting stuff that seem unused (eg. Template:BGGreenno), and some old-style skill templates (eg. Template:Frenzy) ... they seem unused, but I'm not entirely sure. I'd like to go on a template fixing crusade ... maybe if I get my bot running I can do that. --81.157.111.86 21:06, 17 May 2007 (CEST)
Sorry ... somehow I got logged out, the above was me. --MasterPatricko 21:08, 17 May 2007 (CEST)

Falling Shocker?!

Something I noticed that was missing was the Falling Shocker build. Where did the fallign shocker go?! Misfate 05:29, 18 May 2007 (CEST)

nevermind... Misfate 05:30, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
It got eaten by the SP... -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 18:18, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
Actually, I asked the same question on Ben's page. The Falling Shocker, Shovesin, Blacklight and possibly some others that were Archioved on GWiki are missing here. Btw, the Shocker's not dead, [SB] was running with one the other day. - Kowal Krowman (talkcontribs) 18:41, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
I deleted them, but I'll restore them if I can see enough evidence that they're not dead. But one guild using the shocker build isn't really enough (in my mind at least) to warrant its un-dead-ness... A bunch of guilds run various gimmick builds (re:six-sin team we fought a week ago), but we don't post them... -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 19:10, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
So, we are not Archiving builds at this wiki? - Kowal Krowman (talkcontribs) 19:12, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
Most of the ones archived at the time had become crapified by Nightfall. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 20:05, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
That's exactly why they were Archived though. They aren't promoted as the best builds in the current meta, they are historical reference. If someone wants to know what a Boon Prot or a Falling Shocker is, for example, they wouldn't find it under the Vetted title, they'd see it in the Archives. Some of the Archived builds just suck; they were once in GWiki's vetted cat, Skuld stuck them in Archives to get them out of Tested without raising a huge controversy about unilaterally unfavoring a build. Still made a splash though. - Kowal Krowman (talkcontribs) 20:38, 18 May 2007 (CEST)
Meh, I've restored a few that I could think of. If you could leave me a list of others, I'll restore them too. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 22:57, 18 May 2007 (CEST)

Napalm's new innovative idea

I was thinking of something that I saw on GuildWiki, which I think would be a good indicator to use as a template in this wiki. I'm thinking that this template could be added to the top of builds to indicate their current status.

Build Progress
Inspiration Criticism Denial Evaluation Concensus Recycling
Mending Augury of Death 'It's just a flesh wound.' Immolate Zealous Benediction Animate Shambling Horror
        Enchantment  

Should work fine, just needs putting into template form and evaluating from you guys.

*note* I can't get the 2 images working for enchantment and it's just a flesh wound, could someone sort that please? '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 23:07, 23 May 2007 (CEST)

What are the skill icons for? Why not just an 'X' or Checkmark in the appropriate box? And how do the categories relate to a build's place in the vetting procedure (under any policy)? Builds don't go into 'Denial.' The Criticism/Evaluation phases are pretty redundant. What would 'Inspiration' builds look like? Stubs? This as a template would not be very helpful as it is now, as a user new to PvX would look at the thing and have no clue what those little skill icons stood for. - Kowal Krowman {{sysop}} 02:12, 26 May 2007 (CEST)
Okay, I'll explain better. The enchantment upwards gold arrow points towards the state it's in. Inspiration is your stubs, which are not ready to be criticised. Criticism is your stage of initial talks. Denial is the stage which is the equivalent of delete tagging something as of PvX:WELL, or unfavoured which will be deleted. Evaluation is your stage where the vetting begins. Concensus is when the build has been successfully favoured, and recycling is the stage of being archived as of better builds or better skills coming out which trump it. It's quite straightforward really. You just move the arrow to change the build's state. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 00:19, 27 May 2007 (CEST)
Well yeah, it makes sense when you explain it, but Krowman obviously didn't understand, to be honest, I didn't understand, and we are probably not the only one. While it might be useful to some extent, it just seems like another unnecessary thing that people would have to learn about and more likely wouldn't learn about and then get confused when something changed. DE Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 04:19, 29 May 2007 (CEST)
I like the idea, but I would prefer it to be a progress bar or something. and be a extension. gcardinal 05:24, 29 May 2007 (CEST)
Make template. People like templates better than HTML and much better than raw code. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 22:51, 29 May 2007 (CEST)
Please do so, I like my idea xP '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 03:04, 2 June 2007 (CEST)
Should we change the build stub template, untested etc., or make new ones? ~~User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk···contributions) 03:20, 2 June 2007 (CEST)
If we get the go-ahead, then yes, make it a new template, maybe it could overwrite stubs etc in the end... If it's made easy to use. I don't know anything about templates yet though so I can't do it yet. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 03:36, 2 June 2007 (CEST)
Well, apparently we did not have an image uploaded for enchantments... I get that fixed... view my userpage for what I've done so far. EDIT: Fixed both! YAY!~~User Frvwfr2 signature frvwfr2 (talk···contributions) 03:50, 2 June 2007 (CEST)
I like the idea but current template is not a way to go. I will come up with a solution that match overall look of the site. Please hold for now. gcardinal 04:55, 2 June 2007 (CEST)
Wow, thanks! And I thought my idea wouldn't have been taken seriously and chucked straight in the scrap heap... O_o wow I mean, it is a good idea to make the wiki even more skills based xP '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 14:00, 2 June 2007 (CEST)

Skills database

Simple quastion: Do we need a full skill database as on GWiki and on GWWiki ?... I just think there is no point of having it hosted at GWiki when we can host it on our site as well. It wont be done asap, but just to have plans for the feature clear. gcardinal 07:17, 3 June 2007 (CEST)

Pro's and Con's:

  • Pro: PvX becomes more self sustaining and independant. Discussions about those skills become more relevant to build aspect. If something happened to GWiki we arn't affected by it.
  • Cons: Migration and updates. It would be redundant information. Gwiki takes a lot of time to ensure that the skill info is allready up to date (including where to get them, the maps that they are on, the bosses that hold them). And those areas are updated by that user on a frequent basis allready. To move it over here may create a 'skill gap'.
I say leave it on Wiki and not to create redundancy that will fork and become innacurate. Shireensysop 07:25, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
Guildwiki has discussions on skills, a lot of them have useful info in the talk pages about how it can be implemented and used that isn't in the note section. I say leave it, would cause to much work with the upcoming policy implementation anyways. --SefreSig 07:30, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
Agreed, GWiki does this fine, it's too much work on a builds wiki. After all, we are about the collection of skills that you use, not the skills itself. '~\^/~' Napalm Flame Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 11:01, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
Skills database are pretty much static. Discussion on skills goes more into category of builds as one skill is almost nothing by it self. We will also solve problem of dependency on GWiki as we don't need to maintain all inter-wiki in all builds. I dont think it will be much of a work to keep it up to date, 1 person can do it just fine by monitoring GuildWars news and maybe GWWiki. And I am not suggesting to implement it right now, just in the feature. By having full skill database we could also have very advanced build search based on the skills. So you could find all builds using Shadow Refuge or any other elite or non-elite skill. Just try to look out of the box. gcardinal 11:35, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
We already get info on a skill from the mouseover. We really don't need discussion, especially after spending all that time linking to GWiki. Leave the links as they are, I say. The most we want is a reverse lookup namespace (or function, if you feel like doing even MORE coding :P) -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 03:32, 4 June 2007 (CEST)
To do reverse lookup we need skill database. or I dont see how you will pick skills you want to reverse look up. gcardinal 07:39, 4 June 2007 (CEST)

Main Page- WTF?

Dude, wtf is going on with the main page? It's... dead. For the contest winners it just says 'we are happy' and it's just... DEAD. ~~ Napalm Flame ^_^ Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 17:58, 4 June 2007 (CEST)

Hm I am sorry but I cant follow you on this one. What do you mean ? gcardinal 18:09, 4 June 2007 (CEST)
I'll SS and host on imageshack. ~~ Napalm Flame ^_^ Napalm Flame Sig Image (talk)(contributions) 18:21, 4 June 2007 (CEST)
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