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We are not in crisis! We are NOT looking for immediate solution. We are looking for LONG TERM solution.
Please only discuss possible long term solutions here and please don't take any actions before its approved by community and admins!


Important: Please Read Before Continuing To Post

As people may or may not know, English is not Gcardinal's first language, and he often has trouble expressing his sentiments in English. I had a discussion with him a little while ago about the question of financing, and a lot of the points that he brought up in that discussion were inadequately addressed on this page. As such, I've saved the entire conversation and posted a summary on Wiki at User:Defiant Elements/Finance Discussion. I think it's important that everyone take a moment to read through it, because really, what's been said here is not an accurate indicator of Gcardinal's sentiments, thus rendering much of the discussion moot. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 23:15, 13 November 2007 (CET)

I'm gonna replace that with a summary of the conversation for ease of use, it'll be back up in a second, please excuse the delay. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 23:26, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Unnacceptable DE. I am impatient ;p! 209.189.130.127 23:29, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Please read updated first page, it has pretty clear summary. gcardinal 23:32, 13 November 2007 (CET)

I think I managed to hit the high points in my summary. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 23:42, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Please note that that summary does not reflect my personal views, I'm still undecided as to what the proper course of action is. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 23:46, 13 November 2007 (CET)

General

Can i ask GC-have you talked to the official wiki about moving to them? (i understand there's a license issue but i've had various thoughts about and may have a way to solve that problem (i say may-i'm not entirely sure if it will work but it gives us another option), i ask here because you haven't indicated anywhere if you have or haven't talked to them.PheNaxKian (T/c)Tag thumb 23:35, 13 November 2007 (CET)

It is impossible. There is bigger chance of seeing naked porn star on the moon then PvXwiki.GuildWars.com ever online. gcardinal 23:38, 13 November 2007 (CET)
So Phenaxkian, you prefer official wiki than wikia... ;-( GCardinal you may ask them (this will only cost a mail) but I REALLY prefer wikia for my part. At least we will not have to change PvX Wiki policies.--Assassin's PromiseTtibot(Talk) 23:43, 13 November 2007 (CET)
Personally, I would prefer the official wiki over Wikia any day. GCardinal, I know you have been adamant that it is impossible, but all I have seen you give has been conjectures from your own personal opinions. To be honest, I have not seen any solid reasons, other than you just saying they won't go for it. And you are probably right...they probably won't. But, at this point, I think it would appease the community a little bit more if we at least consider the option and contact them. There may be that one small glimmer of a chance that they like the idea, for all we know. Do we really have anything to lose at this point? - Lord Xivor 23:51, 13 November 2007 (CET)
Who to email? GPL and CC together on one site? Guys I am not negative here or something, its is pretty much imposible. They dont even allow builds on their wikispace how/why they will support PvXwiki? And email who? ArenaNet? Feel free to find email where send email as well as making draft of the mail - I will post it as well as answer. This is one big nonsense. gcardinal 23:56, 13 November 2007 (CET)
We will not move to GWW. Their flawed admin system will work even worse here. Do not suggest GWW again. Thanks. — Skakid9090 23:59, 13 November 2007 (CET)
Actually, I see the admin system here as flawed over theirs by far, but that is just my humble opinion, which I am sure no one else on this site shares. Regardless, all I witness is GC shooting down all options and suggestions BUT Wikia, as if he made his mind up a LONG time ago and really does not care what the community thinks. Maybe I am wrong, and I am sure I am, but this is how it appears. So sue me for posting a relevant suggestion to RESEARCH. - Lord Xivor 00:03, 14 November 2007 (CET)
if you do read the main page, it says pretty clear that I did NOT made up my mind and that I have only contacted Wikia in order to make sure they are interested before we go further with internal discussion. Read before you post. gcardinal 00:15, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Everything else aside, you might benefit from reading the conversation summary that I linked in the thread above this one. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 00:07, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Thanks. I was meaning to read that, but kept skipping over it, lol. - Lord Xivor 00:10, 14 November 2007 (CET)
You mention time being the big problem (with not having time to code and pay bills) so would getting another coder perhaps help at all?PheNaxKian (T/c)Tag thumb 00:14, 14 November 2007 (CET)
This is yet another issue that I can't give a definitive answer on; however, since the major problem is that regardless of how many coders we have, all site payments will still have to go though Cardinal which leads to the same theoretical instability. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 00:24, 14 November 2007 (CET)
(EC)If it really is impossible, fine, I'll leave it at that.
But before the archive me and an anon were talking about it. If we can get everyone who has ever made a contribution to agree to relicense all their contributions so they're licensed by what GWW uses. I reckon we can do this by creating a tab on the User name space (a bit like the rating tabs) except this will just have a yes and no button, if you press yes you agree to relicensing your material, and if not you press no (obviously we would make it so each user can only do it on their user space), if there is neither a yes or no, we assume it's a no. We would leave this up for a month and see roughly how much the wiki would be affected if it was transfered to the official wiki, if the community thinks it's ok (and the official wiki wants us) we could use this as an option. While this is going on we would change the current license, so that anything new is under the right license.
I don't know if this idea would actually work, but i feel it's worth exploring it as an option, so we have another choice.PheNaxKian (T/c)Tag thumb 00:01, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Please understand that GWW is not possible. It is just as crazy as getting expedition to moon with PvXwiki. Leave it, please. gcardinal 00:15, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Grmph, changing liscence does not work. We will lose all contribution from users who have not signed. I know the problem very well : I'm admin on a french GW Wiki and we wanted to merge with another GW Wiki because having two wiki is a lack of time. But we couldn't because GWiki is under CC and GW Wikia is under GFDL. Yet it is possible to host on a different site in guildwars.com domain. GCardinal you may ask Gaile to transmit your mail. However I think this is a nonsense too. Even if they accept (I think they will not, GWW wiki users vetted "NO" to the build section and they can't go against users, even if they host the site on a different wiki because of licensing) they are not as exeperienced as wikia in wiki hosting. As well I don't really like the idea of loosing PvX Wiki independance. But you may ask them anyway, this will make it clearer. --Assassin's PromiseTtibot(Talk) 00:16, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Like i said, if it's not at all possiable, that's fine, i'd just like to know that we at least tried this option. (This is obviously just my personal preference, some people will prefer wikia to GWW....)PheNaxKian (T/c)Tag thumb 00:19, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Joining with the official wiki is impossible and overall undesirable for the overarching well being of the wiki. The official wiki has made it excruciatingly clear that they do not want builds on the site. They will also not install the custom extensions GCardinal and Hhhippo have created, as they were made specifically for PvXwiki and will not work with a wiki determined to store information about the game. Additionally, it is conceptually impossible to get every contribution released under a new license - even supposing we could get every single user account to do so (and there are a good number of people who don't visit the wiki anymore, and we have no way to contact them), one anon user would be able to release the contributions of the entire IP address when others may not want theirs. The idea of a vote-like button on user pages is ludicrous - neither GCardinal nor Hhhippo have the time for it, as has been clearly stated many times. For another, the administrator policies on the two wikis are far different - and the community of the official wiki is too... incompetent? hopeless? stupid?... to give actual power to their sysops. (Vandalism on talk pages cannot be removed on the official wiki, nor can one be banned for it. And that's just one example.) Vote removal powers would also be available to all sysops - including those that do not know enough about the game to have that right. With a larger community looking at the builds, and especially the official wiki's specific community, there will be far more bad builds spammed - which does absolutely nothing for our reputation as a site that stores good builds.

Transferring to the official wiki is not an option. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 00:37, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Ad's

I am in favor of ads. We see them everywhere, we are used to it. Better ads than the Wikia-alternative. --Longasc 01:17, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Unfortunately, Ads don't solve one of the major long-term problems. Ads require constant vigilance on the part of Gcardinal because his VISA would be required for the transaction. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 01:25, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Wikia

Green plus icon Neutral, serious, stable, good mentality, experienced in gamming wikis, does not change anything for users, easier for admins. --Assassin's PromiseTtibot(Talk) 23:57, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Green plus icon Solid, stable and as secure as it gets. Community will be safe and can focus on the Wiki side of PvXwiki. gcardinal 00:16, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Green plus icon They're scum. I do feel bad that Gcardinal is forced to pay these bills. — Skakid9090 00:25, 14 November 2007 (CET)

What specifically will they do to make them "Neutral, serious, stable..."? In other words, how will they help this site, specifically? Sorry for not knowing... --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Sorry I wanted to be short but you are right this need some explainations. Wikia is a private company founded by the same personne who founded Wikipedia. It is curently hosting thousand of wikis. The smallest are empty from mounths (someone asked for a wiki and did anything) and relased under .wikia.com domain. The biggest are independant wikis like WoWWiki and GuildWiki. What wikia does? They maintain servers, update the MediaWiki software (at least for small wikis) and grant free hosting. It may look at nothing but it is a big work (I think GCardinal can tell it).--Assassin's PromiseTtibot(Talk) 00:24, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Specifically I guess, the argument is that by transferring to Wikia, we'd be more stable in so far as the corporate entity that would be paying the bills wouldn't be subject to the theoretical instability that results when a single person hosts the site (i.e. if they become inactive and stop paying the bills, the site dies). Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 00:21, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Ok, thanks for the info. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 00:47, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Will Wikia keep the extensions you installed, the GWBBCode, everything if we moved into their world? - Lord Xivor 00:20, 14 November 2007 (CET)

I'm not sure of the answer myself, but given that Cardinal supports a move to Wikia, I'd say it's a strong bet that they would. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 00:23, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Look : WOWWiki extension and the french GW Wikia extensions. They are different. PvXWiki would be an independant wiki like like WOW Wiki (the french wiki is under .wikia.com domain) and have it own version of MediaWiki sofware and it own extensions. We can't be entirely sure unless we ask them but it seems it will.--Assassin's PromiseTtibot(Talk) 00:47, 14 November 2007 (CET)

I'd rather we didn't move to wikia if at all possible, the do suffer from a fair amount of lag at times. Lord Belar 01:10, 14 November 2007 (CET)

To be fair, Ads can cause longer loading times as well. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 01:17, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Yeah, but I use adblock. :P Lord Belar 01:18, 14 November 2007 (CET)
As do I, but it can still be an issue. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 01:19, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Loading will not be an issue on the banners, I will code it diferently from what is "normal". But if all use ad-Block we will never get any cash. in anyway keep ad's discussion in ad's section. 193.215.6.253 08:12, 14 November 2007 (CET)

I fear gcardinal is asking for permission to sell the site to Wikia, just like Gravewit did with GuildWiki. He is rid of the costs plus makes some money, Wikia indeed pays for well developed sites, and the project continues. I understand that idealism and good will do not support a site, but I would favor ads instead of seeing this site becoming part of Wikia. --Longasc 01:15, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Just to begin with, regardless of Cardinal's motives, the very fact that he is openly discussing the possibility of a transfer makes the situation very different, in of itself, than the situation on GuildWiki. Second, I don't see how anyone can argue that it's unfair that Cardinal would desire to alleviate himself of the burden of having to pay for the site entirely on his own. Finally, I think the key phrase that you brought up is really "the project continues," Wikia ensures stability, which, more than any monetary concern is (I think) the biggest issue. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 01:28, 15 November 2007 (CET)
As much as I would love to see PVXWiki remain a separate entity under no banner (i.e. Wikia), Defiant has a good point. They can ensure stability, as they have the finances and the capitol to do so. Gravewitt did not consult the community before making the decision to sell GuildWiki to Wikia. Even if GCardinal wants to sell it to Wikia, at least he is going about it properly and consulting us before making a decision and springing it upon us. However, I do not necessarily believe that GCardinal wants to do that, unless it is the best decision, of which it may be. But at least he is being honest with us, and I will give him the credit due to him for that. - Lord Xivor 02:57, 15 November 2007 (CET)
There is no problem with trying ad's first. Maybe miracle happens and it will give 1000$ a month. However it will turn me into something like "Gravewit" - I will pay hosting, do the ad's menegment and will stay far behind the main scene - it will only drift me even further away from the community. And don't get me wrong - I just want to do whats best without ending of being a%%h()13. DE has going point, but what you guys need to do is to discuss and agreed on solution - I will most likly accept it. gcardinal 12:45, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Are you joking?

What kind of hosting are you using, 150$ is way too much, even for a private server. There is no way you have more traffic than I do on one of my PS's that host 5 heavy traffic sites (10,000 visitors (not hits) a day, each. 3 are forums, 1 is a wiki, and the other is a mirror download site.) and a few minor sites.Anow2 02:45, 14 November 2007 (CET)

I was actually wondering the same thing. My job is a web development consultant, and I deal with hosts that cost $10/month that can support the traffic this website gets. - Lord Xivor 02:52, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Does your server support all the extensions and custom code we have? -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 05:01, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Yes, any server with PHP/MySQL would be sufficient, if it met the bandwidth and webspace requirements. This site uses Mediawiki, which is an open source platform that will work on any host with PHP/MySQL. There is nothing in this site requires anything more than a basic server that gives good bandwidth and good support. Much of the extended functionality on PVXWiki is in CSS styling and Javascript, which are both browser-based, and custom PHP coding, which is standard on any *nix server. Much of GCardinal's custom programming revolves around the GWBBCode platform developed at GWShack.us, which I have used myself in other websites, although not as awesome as GCardinal has. The rest are PHP-based extensions that were created by a 3rd party and installed on here. Also, its not my server. I use the web hosts my clients have accounts with, so it varies by the day. - Lord Xivor 16:11, 14 November 2007 (CET)
We have 500,000 page view's a day, thats 6 pageviews a second and we run MediaWiki. We use the smallest possible server for us. And we use iWeb.ca. You can see more about our hosting bills on donate page. gcardinal 07:40, 14 November 2007 (CET)
How much monthly bandwidth are you using, if I may ask? EDIT: also, I didn't think about this, but I assume you are using a dedicated server, rather than shared hosting? If so, then I understand the higher costs, although I am not certain if a dedicated server is necessary, if that is what you are using. - Lord Xivor 16:11, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Our montly bandwith use are around 350gb on the main server and 150gb on the static image server. And yes I am pretty sure it is necessary. Our server is actualy to small for us, we have spent a lot of time on cache (running memcache and squid) and still our CPU use are constantly over 50%. If we kill squid usualy it results in instant "kill" of the server - in terms that it will use 5-10min on each request, will enter never ending loop and CPU use will boost to 100%. We have a bit more hits then GuildWarsGuru - but we run on 1 cheap dedicated server with 1 external static server and we almost never have 1-2min lags like GuildWarsGuru does - and their server runs not on 1.6ghz Celeron. This site is optimized to the limit - as its possible with hardware we have. I am sorry but you need expirience with high-end hosting before making comments that pvxwiki can run on shared. 193.215.6.253 16:24, 14 November 2007 (CET)
Nope, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you. That is why I am asking questions, and you have answered, and I understand that we use more resources than I originally anticipated. With what you have shared here about our server usage and bandwidth, I can totally agree with you, and even vouch on your behalf to the rest of the community. If we want PvXWiki to crash, then we move, but those CPU stats will never fly on a shared web host. But please do not insult my intelligence, as I do have experience with high-end hosting. However, I was unaware of the type of traffic we were receiving here, hence why I was asking you about it. Thank the Lord we do not run like GuildWarsGuru does. I would have to shoot myself in the head as I waited 5 minutes for every build I want to look at. - Lord Xivor 16:53, 14 November 2007 (CET)

What host are you using? 350GB Bandwidth isn't that much. So CPU is your problem. How much CPU do you have allocated to your server?

BTW CPU Usage will only be bad when people are logging in, editing + creating entries, etc. Basically anything that uses the SQL or changes something on the server. You must be using a REALLY bad host w/ really bad servers. I suggest you guys move over to someone like DreamHost. Anow2 01:09, 15 November 2007 (CET)

"CPU Usage will only be bad when people are logging in, editing + creating entries, etc." It's a wiki, that's all we do. Lord Belar 01:12, 15 November 2007 (CET)

We use Celenor 1.6ghz with 1gb ram, montly costs of 99$. See iWeb.ca. PvXwiki are special as we run things like PvXcode. Unless you have experience with MediaWiki and have actualy tried to host site with 500,000 views a day - its hard to understand. 193.215.6.253 12:38, 15 November 2007 (CET)
I have run MediaWiki, but admittedly, not in the type of production environment you are now. And I have used GWBBCode, even modifying it to work with other applications it was not created for. However, not for MediaWiki. So, I do understand. - Lord Xivor 15:33, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Typo?

From PvXWiki:Financing#Problem:

it is the feature and development of this Wiki that I am not sure I can fully support.

I'm guessing it's supposed to be "future". However I lack permission rights to edit the page to fix the typo. -69.228.65.169 03:18, 15 November 2007 (CET)

No, that's actually correct. Financial troubles always were a planned feature of the wiki, they just haven't had time to fully implement it until recently. :) --71.229.204.25 03:19, 15 November 2007 (CET)
It's written more as a letter from Gcardinal, and as such might be treated as a post. I'm not really sure I should edit it. -Auron 03:23, 15 November 2007 (CET)
It's not really something you can just add to the bottom "oh, btw, that's a typo", like what DE and I did about the official wiki. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 03:46, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Good to know people does read it :) However it seems like discussion is not going anywhere... So what the final deal? Do we want ad's or move to Wikia? gcardinal 09:17, 15 November 2007 (CET)
I think the consensus is we should try ads first, but if they can't sustain the site then there isn't a whole lot of resistance to moving to Wikia as long as there's an honest try with ads first. --71.208.133.30 09:38, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Is there a way we can have an official vote, with move to Wikia now as an option, and try ads first as an option? - Lord Xivor 15:34, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Nope. We don't have "official votes." Polls are ok, but with the exception of the vote for our Vetting Policy, we're not having any kind of votes. As to trying Ads, I don't think there's any real resistance to doing so, except in so far as it doesn't resolve a number of issues (see above for more on that). Defiant Elements Sig Test 2 *Defiant Elements* +talk 18:34, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Ads trial

To make sure that we try all we can to solve this problem I am going to run 2 weeks with ads to see how it goes. We have tested donations and it didn't worked out, let's hope ads will do a better job. gcardinal 21:21, 15 November 2007 (CET)

To everyone with Firefox: If you have AdBlock Plus installed, click the arrow to the right of the icon and select "Disable on www.pvxwiki.com," k thx. --71.208.133.30 21:24, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Ok i think this sounds fair. I'd agree that if we try this and it doesn't work then wikia is the best bet. So i know-where are we putting ads for this trial?PheNaxKian (T/c)Tag thumb 21:42, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Adblock disabled. - Lord Xivor 22:39, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Ad's are online. Big skyscraper are from a quite good adcompany that does only game related ad's. In the bottom we have google ad-words, currently text and a few hand picked gfx ad's. text ad's in google ad-words are not filtered for "gold", will do that tomorow - need a sleep now. gcardinal 22:51, 15 November 2007 (CET)
Adblock disabled as well. I think puting the ads beneath the toolbox might be a better idea though. Edwina Elbert*t*c*Edsig 22:54, 15 November 2007 (CET)
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