Big MMO survey

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Good points about Guild Wars

State them here. Details are your friend.

  1. Team focus. Maybe not 8-man teams specifically, but team focus is awesome for the players. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:46, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
    1. Agree. 1v1 and equal isn't a working system for Guild Wars type of playing. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:25, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  2. Lots of skills and limited slot availability forces diversity, (good) skills have very strong effects relative to normal. --71.229 23:54, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
  3. The by far most tactical MMO out today. Requires vast knowledge and skill to be good at. Very good PvP. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:24, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  4. Instant access to PvP, very good combination of action, strategy and roleplaying genres. --Tiger Tiger's Fury Tigrr grrr!! 06:37, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  5. Ability to reroll PvP and PvE characters with new skill bars and skill point allocation. Not being locked into a bad choice you made to focus on smiting monk with a hammer as a PvE scrub(true story). - Misery Is Hawt19px 07:52, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    1. Agreed. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:20, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  6. Ease of obtaining max damage weapons, the best skills and maximum level(through PvE or PvP chars making them) so that PvP isn't largely determined by grind time in game to farm super weapons, armor and high levels. - Misery Is Hawt19px 07:52, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  7. Good way of linking PvE/PvP. Brandnew. 07:54, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  8. Sorry, I know this is extremely late, but the graphics have to be mentioned. I am so sick of games like WoW, they look like a (bad) cartoon for a 2 year old. GW actually looks good, which to me makes it so much more fun to play. --> 04:45, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
  9. I can SOLO farm, grind, quest much of the time! What a difference from World of Warcraft (from where I originally started my MMO career, played 3 years, and discovered GW (and then loved it so much bought the entire GW series of games.) Yes I'm a GW noob (less than 1 million point paragon - why i picked paragon as first character i do not know - but I love my character!!!), but I'm so pleased with GW I deleted my WOW account characters (calculated at over just over 28 months of actual game play on the game calculator) I am never going back because Guild Wars (aside from prophecy - which I have tried a little but do not like as much as the quests in faction, nightfall, and EofTN) is so much more enjoyable and relaxing. It is the perfect "introvert" game (I'm more introverted) in other words I am shy and I find in GW although I am in a guild, there is very little pressure (unlike WOW) to perform quests, get ripped off by smarter players, get manipulated and used (people taking my time away, but not being kind enough to return the favor.) Speaking of which I've had my share of either boyfriend, or fiance' where I had to teach the boy/man that he needed to learn to satisfy woman not just take his own pleasures. He thought he was stud, until I discreetly pointed out that I was not a blow up doll. Same with WoW - lots of "takers" and very few who know how to return "the love" -- it should be even trade, and GW allow me to ask for help on my terms- and not just take command from guild master to perform to help someone and barely get my needs met. People here on GW (especially in my guild) are so very warm, friendly and willing to answer any question I might have or they will also leave me alone if I need time to just enjoy the game alone. I simply set friendship flag to "busy" and they understand I'm doing solo farming or quests (mostly quests- I have not beaten any of the games yet! I bounce around to the different quests and games when I encounter a difficult spot and can't rally enough players to lend a hand at the moment (which is fine- I have no problem with that, because I know when the time is right, I will either be stronger player to conquer tough quest, OR have better weapons/knowledge about how to get through the quest, or eventually rally guild members to lend a hand. I love guild crysis, and I love guild wars! --Jinn (not sure if I am to use tiddles here or not?)
  10. The fact that you don't need an amazing graphics card is the best, games that require a computer to be completely modded up suck.--User-Liger414 Air of Enchantment Liger414 talk 10:16, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  11. The fact that because the graphics are good you can make your characters look awesome wit weps and armour That Twin Tom sigThat Twin Tom 10:34, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    The graphics are inferior in comparison to other games. Google Lord of the Rings Online (on best quality) or EVE to see some truly awesome graphics. However GW's graphics are clean and nice. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:53, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    The Graphics were ahead of it's time. LOTRO came out every recenly, and EvE graphics mainly focus on ships and asteroids, since most of the game is a featureless void (With stars and stuff). Plus EvE came out with a graphics update pack.
    Guild Wars has a great community. Guild Wars has a battle system that makes it impossible to survive all but the smallest battles unless you pay attention, since you very well could get snared and spiked by those level 15 tengu, even though you've reached max level. This is one of the best parts of the game. Most MMO's don't focus on combat very much, instead spreading their game across many different things, with combat barely getting more love. the result is a game that is 40% cooking/crafting/minigames/The Sims ripoff/fishing, all of which usually involve staring at your character as they attempt to take a puny flower out of the ground, taking at least 10 seconds. In Guild Wars, you can tell that combat is the main focus. After all, it's what you bought the game to do, right? Plus, if you see a red idris flower lying on the ground, you just PICK IT UP. Something my Orc hunter could never do. :P And finally, Guild wars has great PvP. Even with all the broken skills, it's still moch more balanced than, shall we say *cough*WoW*cough*
    Herb gathering in WoW takes all of three seconds, dude. Have a little patience. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 06:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
    and they just made stuff like mining take even less time.--Reason.decrystallized 03:20, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  12. To make a new character you don't need to fuck around for too long before it is useful anywhere. Andy 15:19, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Bad points about Guild Wars

  1. Balance, particularly blockway and meleedamageway. Don't give Knights and Crusaders unconditional +35% damage, make Arcanists choose between Enchantment and Arcanism, etc. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:46, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
  2. Game balance seems to be forced by the meta, not the other way around. lolDW. High (melee) damage scale necessitated lots of defense, which isn't fun to play or play against. --71.229 23:54, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
  3. Extremely unbalanced skills; varies between pure crap (Unyielding Aura) to absolute owerpoweredness (Wounding Strike). The meta only change because of skill balances. Overkill of buffs/nerfs causes a skill to go from great to terrible. No need for so many skills if the balancers can only handle keeping a 5% of them in the meta. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:27, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  4. Several factors (Heroes, Ursan, certain PvE only skills, PvP/PvE devision) have brought PvE play to a stupidly easy and unchallenging level. --Tiger Tiger's Fury Tigrr grrr!! 06:41, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    No one cares about PvE. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 06:46, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    Excuse me sir, it is bad when developers dont care. --Tiger Tiger's Fury Tigrr grrr!! 06:50, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    Late, but ups.--UnderImage- (PvP)Gunned 01:37, 16 August 2008 (EDT)
  5. The community is dead. Players are all either incredible or suck. There's no happy median. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 06:46, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    GWars or PvX? --File:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*Wah Wah Wah!* 08:04, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  6. The learning curve in Factions, wait there isn't any! It's just; here you go: Skills, weapon. slam away my friend. Brandnew. 08:06, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  7. Since they added the stupid split PvE and PvP system they could at least use it to make previously only PvE skills work in PvP and the other way round; but no! Why would we use the system except to nerf all PvP skills to oblivion while making the PvE ones stupidly overpowered (SHADOW FORM!). Shadow Form as an example could be changed to decrease spell damage you take and increase miss chance from enemies, but not to an extreme level making it logical to use in PvP and not overpowered. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:19, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  8. Tyria being the only runnable campaign seriously hampers players who have done all of the noob stuff already and don't want a repeat Riff 18:28, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  9. Some quests, I take 90 minutes to get to bottom of dungeon only to reach final boss who is unbeatable! GRRRR....!!! At least I get some Deldimore (spelling unsure- please forgive) faction, but it's frustrating (even after reading how easy it is supposed to be to down the final boss!) I sometimes wonder both on PVX and on the GW wiki website if people are talking about teams made up of different HUMAN players, or just a single player with 3 other heroes and 4 henchmen! In fact that is probably my most frustrating problem: Some of the authors do not make it clear when explaining that other human players are probably recommended (since computer AI cannot understand correct skill to use at correct moment some of the time.) Other situations, computer AI faster than human could ever punch key to make hero/henchman interrupt mob (foe) or other skills that require intensely close attention to detail that the AI is better suited than human player. I do wish that more authors would clarify when players are to bring other human teammates or build is good enough that simply switching a few skills out, allows PVX hero build to be very easy for the AI to control. (most of the authors kindly do provide this information so thank you to them!) --Jinn
  10. Build Wars: to a disturbing extent in pve, builds are customized, not to be good, but to gank whatever you know in advance that the AI does. In pvp, some builds are absurdly strong against other builds, and if the enemy just happens to show up with what beats you, you lose regardless of relative playing skill.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:16, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
  11. skill over grind: such a good idea in theory, but it just didn't work that way. in practice, it means that the lack of character improvement provides a disincentive to keep playing, you're not rewarded properly for the grinding that you're expected to do, because anyone can go anywhere you have no idea whether the person you're with is a total n00b and don't want to risk finding out so you just take sabway, and in pvp you've no idea whether you're going on to a 20 game winning streak or getting your face kicked in five times in a row. also, the ability to change anything about a character with a touch of a button led to a lack of emotional investment in the characters, providing a further disincentive to continued play.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:25, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
    That's only true if you consider PvE. Rewarding grind over skill in a PvP based game is a terrible idea. Just look at WoW, you could be the best player in the game, but if your gear is bad and your opponent's is great, you'll still probably lose. Sure, it has excelent PvE that keeps people addicted forever, but the PvP balance is just not there. Having rewards for PvE play that have no impact in PvP would be one way to find balance between these. Possibly have completely seperate PvE and PvP armor and weapons, so you can have balance in PvP and grind rewards in PvE. Also, as far as telling who is good and bad, that has less to do with the game concept than the balance. GW PvE is insanely easy, so any noob can get to any point in any game. If the game was more properly balanced, you wouldn't have to worry about the bad players late in the game, because they would either not be good enough to get there, or eventually improve enough that they are no longer bad and can succeed. Games requiring grind still have bad players at the end of the game, that just means that they have more time and experience, not necessarily skill. ¬ «Ðêjh» (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
  12. Izzy. —ǘŋƐxɩsƫ 11:00, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
  13. Game gets really fucking boring. Atleast Runescape added stupid little quests and even entirely new skills or whatever weekly. The only "update" you get for Guild Wars is Izzy showing how fucking autistic he is, play with an overpowered skill for a day or so, until Izzy realizes he's fucking autistic and nerfs the skill to the realm of shitiness, thus again proving that Izzy is autistic. --GoD Hammer and Sickle Guild of Deals 07:10, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  14. Solo PvE. I know it's not the point of the game, but still--i like to play it. When I want to go do some quests in WoW, i just go do the fucking quests. In Guild Wars? Not so much. whenever you want to do anything but a hard mode dungeon (and even then quite often), you have to have a full party of retarded AI henchmen with you at all times. on only three of them could you customize their build, sticking you with whatever retarded crap the henchies used. henchmen are different city to city necessitating constant party reorganization. many missions/quests forced you to use a particular hero, again throwing off your party and forcing you to level up AND gear AND rune AND screw with the build of a hero that you would never use otherwise, or else go through a mission with a lvl 15 bot wielding a starter sword. allowing you to customize your party in all its aspects might actually have made this system workable and fun, but instead you're stuck choosing between the extremely limited and fairly crappy premade builds that the henchmen use for fully half your party slots. furthermore, the shitty AI pretty much curtailed any sort of fun you might have had with the three slots that you ARE allowed to customize, which means that party builds for solo play tended to emphasize the class (necromancer) and build type (micromanagement--sabway; unified target selection--dicordway) that the AI sucked at least rather than giving play to the full range of possibilities that ought to have been inherent to the more casual format of pve.--Reason.decrystallized 03:48, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  15. Servers are fucking terrible. Bad players don't have to stop playing because they're bad. Andy 15:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Good points about other games

Any game you like. Providing links is good. I'll research it if need be, even if it's some Atari game no one's ever heard of.

  1. Fire Emblem's experience system was neat, but difficult to code, and level 39s requiring just as much experience to get their last level as a level 1 getting his first is gonna seem weird. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:46, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

'Jay, I bought fire emblem path of radiance just to receive it on my birthday, any remarks or comments about that game?Jelmewnema 15:25, 24 November 2008 (EST)

    1. ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(sysop) 23:51, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
  1. Baldur's Gate 2/System Shock 2/Planescape:Torment/Portal: Excellent writing, amazing villains. --71.229 23:54, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
  2. Fallout 2. Extreme sandbox where you're the one in control, not the game. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:22, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  3. Pokemon. It has Piplups. --Ibreaktoilets SignatureTab Moo 06:30, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  4. Super Smash Bros.:Comment too short. --File:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*Wah Wah Wah!* 08:05, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  5. Space Empires V: It's like, 10 or 15 bucks on Steam and has rediculous mod support, replayability, etc. My favorite Turn-based strategy game out there. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 09:24, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
  6. AION. Looks fucking awesome, lets you fly, amazing character customization, and Rangers look by far the coolest Ranger in a MMO yet! Check out the videos on the website. Selket Shadowdancer 09:28, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    Indeed, AION is a highly clever game. --Tiger Tiger's Fury Tigrr grrr!! 05:59, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    If NCsoft don't drop the ball on this one I think it will be one of the best MMOs on the market and I know for sure GW and WoW will be erased for life from my HDD if it's as good as it looks. Selket Shadowdancer 07:17, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    WoW got a very strong playerbase, it won't fail. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 07:22, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  7. SC2 its just so cool --InfestedHydralisk InfestedHydralisk sig2(Talk*Contributions) 10:04, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
  8. Diablo III i see dead people --InfestedHydralisk InfestedHydralisk sig2(Talk*Contributions) 10:04, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
  9. Star Wars Galaxies implemented the most complex and best designed skill system in any MMO to date. It involved 26 different professions, each consisting of a novice box, a master box, and 4 specialization lines of 4 boxes each. each skill box required a certain amount of experience and skill points to train. Character had a maximum of 250 skill points. At any point a player could surrender a skill box to regain the skill points it cost to train the skill, but not the experience. A profession calaculator showing how the skill system worked can be found here. No game has or ever will create a superior skill system.--GoldenGoldenstarStar 19:52, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
    Was an awesome game till sony pooped on it. Tookey D:< 14:47, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
  10. ChronoTrigger: awesome plot, entertaining and lovable characters, addictive gameplay, near-infinite replay value searching for all the alternate endings.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 00:17, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
  11. Portal--you make portals, whats better than that??!! nothing.--HalloweenHALLOWWIKI 17:19, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  12. Darkfall: More of a "fps" style mmo. You actually control the position of your character, aim spells and arrows, and with melee, have to run around,aim, and click to swing an axe or hold up a shield. Exp gain is based on what you use, not what you put points in (ala morrowind/oblivion) Can cut off people's heads. World pvp. Tookey D:< 14:47, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
  13. Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot. Just. Better. Tookey D:< 14:47, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
  14. TF2 - wins!!! Midget chinese 02:47, 5 November 2008 (EST)
  15. Final Fantasy games are always amazing. Great graphics, captivating stories and they really get the players involved. 11:23, 10 November 2008 (EST)
  16. Complexity of character customization and cutscenes always showing your character (instead of just the party leader, as in GW), a la Saints of the Row 2. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 23:42, 17 November 2008 (EST)
  17. Auction house is req. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 23:44, 17 November 2008 (EST)
  18. Kingdom of Loathing. Awesome economy where you can actually do stuff, fun gameplay and replay value. And stick figures. 02:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Bad points about other games

Again, any game you like, plus links.

  1. FFIV GBA version's dialog at/after the final battle when you brought people other than the original 5 got really funky. Don't do that. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 23:46, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
  2. Gear dependence in MMOs force a constant grinding, and when PvP is included makes it extremely unbalanced. Levelling is an old outdated system that should've been trashed long ago in favor of more sandbox playstyle. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:29, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    Leveling is a tool that makes the game more of a tutorial until end-game. For example, ever notice how there aren't too many bad players in WoW in the end game compared to say, Guild Wars? Players in level-intensive games know what they're doing but players in sandbox style games, or games that have a low level cap breed a two-tiered divide between players: bad and good. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 08:03, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    I think that's more of a function of GW lacking any way to encourage bad players to play modes that forces them to improve. In WoW, there's AV and such, basically high-end PvE, and Arenas, where you will get your shit kicked in by Druids and Rogues until you stop sucking. GW has RA, where you can succeed with the most retarded stuff and get rewarded for not being entirely terrible at basically the same rate you would get rewarded for being good but not great. And WoW's PvE attracts more of the srs bsnss crowd than GW's does, so there's that too. --71.229 08:08, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    Grinding PvE wouldn't really fill that purpose either. One decent thing is the ladder for GvG means that bad teams likely won't face good teams until the bad teams have improved. Perhaps similar things need to be in place for TA and HA. This would also make bad teams easier to form because you would actually have a chance of winning as your opponents would suck too. I don't know how this would work when good players played with bad players. I don't think anything needs to be said about RA, it's RA. - Misery Is Hawt19px 08:17, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    Right, which only reinforces the fact that Guild Wars is dieing. In WoW, for example, you want to PvP to get that epic mount or that Arena set. In EVE, you're PvPing no matter what you do. In fact, even undercutting another person who's selling something on the market is PvP. In GWs, there's absolutely no incentive to PvP when you can get all of that in PvE more reliably. More importantly, since it's more difficult to find good people, particularly good people who are willing to shepherd bad people through their first exposures to higher-end PvP, GW's skill base is going down. The GWs system falls apart while the EQ system works flawlessly after years of activity. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 19:30, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    And you all fail to see that leveling isn't the only way to prevent people from reaching the endgame content. By having parts requiring players, skill etc to get through you skip the stupid leveling crap and still got something preventing you from charging into the endgame directly. Additionally WoW is a fucking terrible game in every aspect; the PvP is so broken it makes me want to try, the PvE is just a big fucking farmfest, the leveling irritates people so much that WoW has been forced to cut down the time it takes to level up drastically, lack of endgame forces them to add 10 more levels and copy paste the dungeons to then change the color of them. Overall WoW just takes what previous MMOs have done before and makes even simpler to make all brainless beginners able to have fun in it. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:15, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    ups, GW copypastes and recolors dungeons, too. Cedave bad  ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 22:13, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  3. Pokemon. You're limited to having a maximum of 546 Piplups. --Ibreaktoilets SignatureTab Moo 06:30, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
    I'm not sure if pokemon's the issue, of if the fact that you actually took the time to collect 546 piplups. Also, Pokemon Yellow was so glitchy, my Pikachu evolved into a Butterfree. Cedave bad ツ cedave (contributionsbuildpage) 00:44, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
  4. Trash mobs. They're mind-numbing to fight, especially when they're like GW's - no intelligence, big numbers, mindless C+spacing. If you have to do mobs, I'd much rather fight huge packs of weak, smart things. There's no reward in watching some big dumb thing's red bar take ten minutes to move to zero. Also, if Everquest or WoW or any game that imitates those two did it, you should look for ways to not do it. Not for the sake of being different, but because people already did those things when they were EQ and WoW and they're not going to get any better, because they were kinda bad ideas to start with. --71.229 19:47, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
  5. Also, stat/skill points you can't reassign or cost money to reassign. What the fuck, why do that. Can't even call it a gold sink because people farm gold because they need to do it, not spend gold they already have because they can. --71.229 19:53, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
    If you've ever played Diablo you know how little money means in that game. Blizzard tried to prevent the same from happening in WoW by making players forced to spend money on pretty much everything, thus making money a very necessary thing to have. Other stuff they did was ofc to make money drops decrease and so on. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:55, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    point, but there has to be a happy median somewhere between GW's "i can change anything i want with the touch of a button leading to a total lack of emotional investment in my character/build/playstyle" and wow's "drop fifty gold every time you want to try what it would be like with arctic reach instead of frostbite".--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 19:43, 7 November 2008 (EST)
  6. Oblivion: every battle scales perfectly every time. in theory they were trying to keep the game interesting at higher levels, but in practice it simply made it impossible to see any development--the same fucking bandit that kicked your ass at lvl 1 will still do so @ 30, and the struggles that they wanted to be epic were doable at lvl 2. unless you were a mage, then when destruction hit high enough lvls you added 20pts drain speed and 100 pts weakness to magicka on your standard spell it became retardedly easy because your ranged kill spell also glued every enemy to the spot.--Reason.decrystallized 03:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Other comments

Discuss pls.

  1. From the ground up, make it so skills can be split into PvE, PvP, and make it easy to add new categories (like if GW skills could be altered for HA or GvG instead of just PvP). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  2. Chat logs. Good god GW support sucks. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  3. "godmode" with relation to accounts... maybe. Gotta worry about hackers. Still, see above. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  4. Force change in gear upon entering a PvP mission/area/whatever. Whatever gear farming you do works fine for PvE, but as soon as you go into PvP everyone's on the same level. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  5. Maximum level of 40, which ought to be attainable within a month or so. Gives a balance between GW's "lol low levels" and WoW's "lol 3 months to get to 70", but with a focus on the party for a chunk of said leveling, it should also be enough time to learn how to actually play the game (there's been level 40s in WoW asking what the AH is, for example, or what their new spells do) and not be boring before 40. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  6. Debating PvP characters. If your gear is automatically changed when you enter a PvP thing, though, it might be a bad idea to let people jump right into PvP without learning how to play via leveling a character (it'd be nice if all PvPers know what kiting is, for example). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    I'd suppose you'd rather want more 'class' situation; for example; gud ppl split from the bad so have seperate arena's, where you can improve blabla and you get into the better. That would make RA alot more fun, and the bad people not against gods so they can actually improve. —ǘŋƐxɩsƫ 11:55, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
  7. Possibly kill off the idea of classes/professions upon creating the character. Instead, your quests to get you to level 10 would focus on choosing your focus (melee over spell over ranged or whatever, and what type of melee/spell/ranged). It'd be somewhat frustrating to work out what the quests would be, but the gain would be in ease of character creation and early-game learning (if you have to actively choose whether you want Arcane Strike or Lesser Fireball or Agile Hit, for example, you're more likely to know what they do and how to use them). Please discuss this one. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 01:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    This here leads to something that the game really could use, even more rerollability. Especially with how the developers seem to be pushing people more and more towards using a single character(HoM achievements, character based titles) you should be able to play any class on that character so you didn't waste your time capping every elite on your necromancer(Charging Strike is gud on a necromancer mirite?). I read that Anet wants to remove the whole idea of PvP and PvE characters and I think this would be excellent, as long as all characters behaved like PvP chars currently do. That is to say you can reroll your equipment and stats in any outpost you want. Instead of buying new armour, weapons, runes, upgrades and insignias, you unlock them just like skills. It would actually mesh quite well with the whole PvX mantra of no point in storing builds that assume you don't have access to the optimal class, insignias, weapons, etc. They are going to have to be very fucking careful introducing new races and classes to make sure that visually you can still tell a warrior is a warrior and a monk a monk. We all remember how stupid PvP became during stick figure day. As for the whole learning thing, I don't really see how you force people to learn. Bad people will stay bad unless you punish them for being bad and not punishing them actually appeals more to the mainstream market and let's face it, pandering only to the wants and needs of hardcore PvPers would be financial death for Anet. Let people be bad in low level arenas, does it matter? What would probably help more is more official information made available from the developers. It was bloody hell trying to work out what went on in GW before the wikis got up and running. I had no idea what maximum armor was or if 15k armour was better than Droknar's Forge armour or if PvP chars and PvE were equivalent. - Misery Is Hawt19px 03:57, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    I liked PvP on stick figure day. It made me gud arenas monk. :< --71.229 04:30, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    As with leveling classes is an outdated system that should've been trashed long ago, but due to it's ease to implement and lack of creativity when designing it's commonly picked. A game where you pick just one single character and then you can pretty much change him to whatever you want him to be would be much better in many aspects; no stupid rerolling and replaying of already played areas making them boring, you don't need to farm everything for every new character, your favorite character will be the only one necessary to play and so on. Having as it's now with many different characters is just stupid. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:27, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    We are already going to have to make one char for each race(I can't see them making race interchangeable) and it will piss me off massively if I can't reroll primary class too. FFS make more things account wide too. I am sick of redoing the same quests, missions and unlocking the same stuff 4-5 times over just because I want this or that elite on a specific PvE char so I can pimp him for PvP. - Misery Is Hawt19px 06:39, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    Ah, but you see I was more dreaming than being logical about GW2. And I agree on redoing all quests multiple times, it becomes truly boring regardless of how fun they were from the beginning. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:45, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    Er, this isn't for GW. This is for a potential game thing I'm typing up in my spare time. It'd be pretty neat if I could contact some major company and get it rolling, but for now it's just a hobby (one that I'm not going to ignore the potential financial value of). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 11:20, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    Well, what you are hearing is, make shit account wide. - Misery Is Hawt19px 11:28, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    Tabula Rasa anyone? Cedave bad ツ cedave (contributionsbuildpage) 10:32, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
  8. If you're going to add skills then add skills that will be used and aren't completely worthless. Don't add more skills than necessary and you can keep balanced. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:27, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
  9. Classes got one major flaw: they're good for different things. I enjoy playing my paragon in general PvP and currently consider all other classes/professions to be quite boring. However that leads me to a problem: paragons weren't made for farming. So basically I have to reroll and run another character in order to be able to farm for money, and this is not just stupid it's also bad as it forces a reroll on a player who otherwise wouldn't have wanted to do so. The problem can be solved by either making all classes good at farming or entirely skipping the class system. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 06:31, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
    Tabula Rasa anyone? Cedave bad ツ cedave (contributionsbuildpage) 10:32, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
    I'm hesitant to skip the class system entirely, because it leads to things like Runescape where it takes forever to get good at anything, and then once you are good at things, you can just combine the best of stuff and completely ignore the downsides (such as RS meleers in dragonhide instead of plate so they can switch to bows when needed and aren't completely fucked up by mages like they're supposed to be). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 10:57, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
  10. care about the game you make. it has been rightly said that in GW no one cares about PvE. that is true. and it is one of the main reasons i quit playing--because developers not caring is bad thing. this also applies to skills. how many skills are there in GW? over a thousand? and how many are any good--at all? less than a fourth of them, if that. that sucks balls, okay? if you're going to put something in your game, make it something that you will care about and that people will want to use, or leave it the fuck out.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 23:07, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
  11. Playing GvG makes your body smell. —ǘŋƐxɩsƫ 11:01, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

Dark's QQ

I'll attempt to restart this conversation with the following:

For all intents and purposes, the following 3 MMO's are the MMO's that i have the most experience with and are arguably the 3 that matter the most.

  • Runescape
  • Guild Wars
  • WoW

PvP perspective:

  • Runescape
    • Surprising amount of intrinsic balance, however the system is so grind based that only tidbits can be taken from it/learned from it:
      • As regards gear, only at the highest level of competiton does spending ridiculous amounts of money on gear make a real difference. Welfaring(also called Nigerian Ranging) is the use of cheap but competent and useful gear. Because of the lose-your-items nature of pking, welfaring vs. using expensive gear is balanced naturally by risk/reward. Why risk good gear if all the shitters are using stuff that is so bad you cant even break even on it? Abuse of the loopholes and stupidities in the "requisite system" is rampant.
      • As regards grind, unlike WoW where grind is centered on getting gear, grind in runescape is based almost entirely on getting a more powerful character (the 135/126 max combat level is literally a 5x longer undertaking than lvl 70 in WoW. i dont think i'm exaggerating).
      • As regards everything else:Healing is based off food which also costs money. You cant attack while eating. This adds a level of play that requires a surprising amount of anticipation and "honour" as regards when you eat. Prayer, which can function to mitigate or enhance damage, does a similiar thing. As a final note, there is also the "combat triangle":range>mage mage>melee melee>range. HOWEVER this triangle is rendered useless by the fact that mage has no killing power, and can be used effectively by a meleer or ranger, and that range and melee can wear eachother's armour and use eachother's weapons.
  • Guild Wars
    • Suffers from the inherent imbalance or weakness of certain classes, skills, and techniques, because of the nature of the game/gametype involved.
      • As regards gear, max gear is easily obtainable. Unless you consider a monk with q7 shield truly "imbalanced" there is little that can be bought/obtained that sets you above the rest.
      • As regards grind.
      • As regards everything else: There is a huge amount to be learned from the problems that HA and GvG suffer from and why their differences lead to their different problems. One of the facts that muddies the water is that the playerbase is, honestly, so fucking smart that they have found ways to break all the gametypes into raging dickfights. However, it is becoming more apparent, as more games develop serious pvp, that this happens in every game. PvP titles fail.
  • WoW
    • Hopeless.
      • As regards gear, grinding your way into the best gear=success. I dont know WoW that well, but apparently, there is no damage limit on weapons or armor limit on gear, and if there are, they are simply too high.
      • As regards grind, see above. Whats interesting is the aforementioned difference between what gives grind its power in Runescape as compared to WoW.
      • As regards everything else, any game where "jumping" is a tactically viable technique is not a game that needs to be read that much into.

From all of this, i think the following is the best course to take:

There should be 8v8 formats similar to HA and GvG. A Victory or Death system could be kept in some capacity, but the very name suggests its inherent brokenness. Any effect made expressly to end the game is going to be exploited. Extensive, informative ladders should be available for HA style game type, GvG game type AND AND AND AND AND AND AND ANDDDDDDDDD the organized 4v4 type. Titles should be removed because of their inherent gaiety. World PvP, a lose-your-items format, and a form of betting on games(not this tournament bullshit) should be considered. AB style, just-for-fun pvp should be kept, along with, for this style, an end-game screen similar to that in a 1st person shooter, where whoever got the first kill is given suitable accolades. Because the format is so shitty, there should be still be a title for it. Disorganized 4v4 should be available. If your guild has achieved a certain rating(1300 for the sake of example), in any of the formats, an RA area for only those people should be allowed, for experienced just-for-funning. Same for the AB format. The HB style should be made into a separate version of 4v4(thats always been my wish in this game...)

For balancing of gear and how the killing system would work:Gear should be easily obtainable but certain amounts of grind that in some capacity demand skill, could be utilized to give SMALL rewards, maybe 5% more damage. AS for level caps and pve vs. pvp characters, whats already beens said by Armond is pretty good.

Thats it. If anyone gives a damn, my friend is an MLG Halo player, and i play CoD4 on a somewhat advanced level. Additional information from those games about pvp is something to consider and make use of.19px--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 20:11, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

^as in, i could add sections about those.19px--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 20:13, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
Losing gear by dying is stupid. Not having to grind AT ALL to pvp in gw is one of the reasons its so good. -- 19px The proceeding Cute McPiplup was added by Rawr. 20:19, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
Agreed and agreed. But, a formatwhere the possibility of making/losing money would be awesome, provided it was just the ONE format. As well, maybe no grind is best. But if, say, a guild with a good rating was given access to a special, motherfucking hard dungeon, that rewarded a minimally better item, i think that woudl be fine. It would be so marginal that the item would be more a matter of showing off than effectiveness.(silly dark, I just described a crystalline sword)19px--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 20:24, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
A minimally better item so they can instagib people who they already could instagib, just easier? That would make the ladder alot more frozen. There wouldnt be as many movements; you'd likely find your rank and stay there. It also sorta throws skill out the window. Imagine if you came up against dR in gw and they had a better weapon advantage - so not only would they probably beat you easily, but now they have better stuff so it is near impossible to beat them. -- 19px The proceeding Cute McPiplup was added by Rawr. 20:27, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
The dungeon wouldnt require finals-in-the-monthly credentials. A guild rank that is enough that the players are legitimately pvpers. Whats that, like, 500? As well, the equipment would only be usable against a guild also utilizing them.19px--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 20:31, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
So you can only use that equip against people with identical equip so really nothings changed? O_O. Fact is, if people use dif equips, then skill gets taken out the picture. -- 19px The proceeding Cute McPiplup was added by Rawr. 20:32, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
Thats an excellent point. fuck all, but we're getting side tracked.19px--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 20:54, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
Agreed that WoW's PvP is absolute shit. The gear hierarchy is absolutely horrible in PvP (if you're level 70 and have less than, say, 200 resil, your face gets melted instantly, but if you didn't think to PvP before hitting 70, your only way of getting resil is to get gear designed for level 65s at best), to say nothing of fear + stealth + stunlock + shaman lolgimp (frontloaded dps ftl). However, big point I want to put in here.
One major failure of all three games (and, interestingly enough, those are the three big MMOs I've played, too) is that, while all of them require leveling, none of them teach you much of anything while you level. I made it to level 96 or so in Runescape and learned nothing more than "click to kill, mash special bar when you can, hit pots if needed, eat every now and then if you feel like it". In Guild Wars - Factions especially - the lower levels just go by so fast that by the time you hit max level you've not had much of a chance to learn anything. Prophesies is the exception to this, and Pre-searing in particular does the best job of them all of trying to teach things. Even so, there's no requirement of any sort of skill to hit 20. WoW uses a more "brute force" type of method - you level for a fucking month, you better fucking learn something. But, again, there's no requirement to actually learn to play before you hit kara or whatever - I've seen huntards in Outland that do a pull shot, melee the mob to death (which does around a fifth the dps their ranged weapons would do), and completely ignore their pet (who, under most circumstances, makes for an amazing tank for soloing).
What's this all lead up to? The point of leveling is to learn how to play your class effectively. This is, in a sense, why I'm leaning towards letting you change your primary profession once you hit the max level. However, unlocking all your abilities for the new profession would require learning to use them first, so you don't have a guy who leveled to 40 on his Knight, switched to be an Arcanist, and then runs around spamming random spells and grabbing agro with his AoE. The big point about quests for learning this is that they would be easy if you knew what you were doing, to speed leveling a second character (different race/faction/backstory), but difficult if you don't follow the tips they give you (like "use your shield bash skill to interrupt his slow-cast invincibility spell"). This should also discourage powerleveling by making the quests less efficient in these situations, as powerleveling = not learning to play = bad.
-- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 22:25, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
I think that guild wars is more like real life, like, I work out, but i dont see a skill bar over my head indicating that mu strength level is 43. In runescape and WoW, when i train to become a better pvper, the game bestows on me more power. In guild wars, i practice to become, the game doesnt make me better. Whatever is ever done in any pvp game, that is what makes it good, imo.19px--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 23:48, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
WoW's skill levels thing is pretty dumb. Essentially all it does is add grind - when you hit 70, you'll probably have 350 skill in Defense and whatever weapon you've been using most up to then. Say my hunter trains guns to 70 (or, more likely, from 65 to 70) and then gets a crossbow drop. Well, gee, I haven't used a crossbow since level 40, now I get to spend a few hours (or even days) grinding up my skill so I can use the new drop. In Runescape it's still kind of stupid, but there's no other way to level up your combat, so... meh. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{sysop}} 13:12, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
the problem with all "lvl it by using it" skill systems is that they lead to ridiculous abuse and people sitting around for hours smacking mudcrabs with "heal target on strike" enchanted rusty swords.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 23:10, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
the problem with "lvl by grind" skill systems is that they lead to ridiculous abuse and people sitting around for hours getting ran through XP heavy missions and areas. Cedave bad  ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 03:28, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
Either way, the issue can be solved by make it so you can only get so much skill up from one creature, or you can only get xp from one mission one time. Up by skill is the best, either way, though. It just takes imaginitive design. Cedave bad  ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 03:28, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
No, it ca be solved by eliminating the system like I said above. Real life doesnt have a strength level. Same with Guild Wars. But WoW and RS do. Guess which game has the better pvp? The more you try to "fix" the sytem the closer you get to things like the SWG combat upgrade and the constant gameraping meta shifts in runescape.--Dark0805(Rant/Contributions) 12:26, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
If you want to make it like real life, take away levels , make you practice shit so you can do it better, and then base it off of who has the faster shooting, more accurate, and more explosive rounds. We can call it "Massively Multiplayer Mercenaries" gogogo. Cedave bad  ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 15:25, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
Or counterstrike. Rawrawr Dinosaur 15:29, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
^ Cedave bad  ツ cedave (☆contributions☆) 15:31, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
counterstrike with fireballs would be awesome.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 14:29, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Dark, you win. I shall consider writing a more elaborate comment than this sometime but for now this will be it. The difference between the named games are that: Runescape is ftp, thus comparisons will always be uneven although the game does offer a more hardcore PvP; GW's main problem is the balance - otherwise it's really quite fine; WoW is a game where the concept of balance doesn't exist and the main focus is PvE really, PvP was just thrown on afterwards to make some additional players keep playing. The problem with your half-comparison is that you're comparing three games of such differences. I should really add some notes regarding some games I've played, such as LotRO and EVE. Another day maybe. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 15:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

The problem is, GW is so much different from other games that its too hard to do full on comparisons. Other games that start from a pvp focus (Lineage 2, Darkfall, etc.) all focus on world pvp. The arena pvp system is awesome and lot more tactical on a micro scale. Full on world pvp is a lot more tactical on a macro scale. (Think AB, just better, random numbers of people, and hoog). Tookey D:< 14:51, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
The problem I have with world PvP is there's no guarantee of appropriate levels of skill vs skill, gear vs gear, or even willing vs willing. I do want to have different tiers of PvP gear (in GW terms, it'd be the approximate of starting with 10^50 and +20 hp fort mods and earning your way to 20^50 or +60 hp fort mods, and only fighting people with similar levels of gear the whole time), and being ganked while doing normal stuff sucks. I think there'll be an area for that (a la Runescape's old Wilderness, but with some tweaks), but for proper world PvP, I think the appropriate solution would be something like a huge, neverending AB match (so I suppose that's one thing GW2 might do right). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 18:33, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
the skill vs skill thing, and even to a limited extent the gear thing (i mean, come on, how many n00bs REALLY had all the caster sets they were supposed to?) apply to every aspect of GW except GvG.--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 07:07, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

I'd say that the perfect game for me seen from a PvP perspective would include this:

  • Create your own guilds, which can then join (self-created) factions.
  • Territorial fighting.
  • Different areas can be conquered for your faction to give it different bonuses.
  • No fucking difference in items whatsoever.
  • You join the game and you instantly got the best fucking armor and weapons you will ever get.
  • Skill based, as in using skills.
  • That means no classes.
  • ~20 skills in total only, and you can only bring 2-3 skills on your bar.
  • These skills then change depending on the situation.
  • Ability to display that you actually got some form of skills in the game, i.e. not just skills that require random button mashing.
  • Preferably some interruption skills since these add a lot to the game.
  • No arenas at all in the game, open world PvP is the only thing.
  • Constantly tagged for PvP and nowhere to hide.
  • Faction-owned towns and cities.
  • Heavy focus on teamwork.
  • Faction-cooperation would be what I'd aim for then.

I think that was everything. Unlike other games where what keeps you playing will be the idea of getting new gear, here it will be to make your faction more reputable. I may've missed some concept I would like to add, but overall those are what I thought of directly. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 07:39, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

That'd be a great list for a purely PvP game, but I do want to incorporate a strong PvE aspect as well. Still, a lot of things can be used in both types of games. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image{{Bacon}} 09:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
I'd say for PvE make a split; some areas are fought for through PvP and others through PvE. I also forgot to add that I would like to add crafting as a way to develop the world, but that would be quire requiring seen through a programming aspect. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 09:50, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
crafting to do what, though? if it would provide tangible benefits then it's back to powerlevelling (unless lvling it were ridiculously easy and there were a variety of benefits that were balanced against each other), if it's just to make your magic stick look prettier, then why? just customization?--reason.decrystallized I frenzy-healsig. 10:15, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
The setting is post-apocalyptic (as always when I theorycraft games) and the major part of your science has been lost. What you're thinking of is that crafting=creating items for war rather than creating all kinds of items. These factions need to maintain their cities and keep them alive, otherwise having them is no point. And how do you do that best? Technology. And how do you get technology? Crafting. By using crafting as a way to develop new technology, and technology a way to benefit factions you've created a crafting that would come across neither of the problems you mentioned. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:50, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
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