I think the flaw in the wiki was the vetting system. It made things aggressive from the start. The metagame wasn't understood or developed during the inception of this site, so we kind of needed it, but if we could have always said "Go look on obs, if it is there, good, if not, GTFO" and made that the entire goal of the site, documentation, we could have avoided the whole creative beautiful butterfly syndrome. If we had made it, from the start, that this site was only for documenting the metagame with all beautiful snowflakes kept within user spaces, and some way of accessing builds within the user space reliably, I think the environment could have been friendlier. Unfortunately the PvE meta is harder to reference, but I would say the standard there would be go to the outpost, if there is a bunch of "lfg fagway"s, then it gets an article. RA should never have been documented and I still maintain that section of the site should be removed.
However, given a choice between PvXwiki and Gamependium, the people who built this site made the right fucking choice. It's not like GWW isn't a shithole that burns people out either. We just do it faster. I think if some of the better sysops had come at the same time instead of spread out just after one burnt out they could have gone on longer too. Misery 15:19, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, also, making Tab an admin on the forum site was the worst call ever, but GCardinal nigger raged at the one thing that might have gotten most of the faggotry off of this site, so who cares? Misery 15:20, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
In my honest opinion, if the PvX admins of old had been allowed to simply exercise their right to ban whoever the fuck they wanted, PvX would be a much friendlier and generally much more intelligent place. Mostly because it probably would've kept those admins from getting so burnt out. I don't think you could ever have a friendly PvX, given its nature, but I'm sure it could've been better. Anything else I'd have to say would just be stating the obvious, or re-stating things that have been said a dozen times. Daññy 17:17, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree as well. One thing we might want to do for the GW2 version of pvx would be to make a dedicated split from the beginning between theorycrafts and meta. Make separate categories in the build space for recording the metagame and a category for voting where people can create theorycrafts. I think that will let us be a friendlier community while still storing the best builds out there.--TahiriVeila 17:56, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- ">>implying there will be a PvX2"
- Wikia won't go out of their way to create the new extension required to create a PvX2 (given it's an extension only that wiki would benefit from) and I don't see anyone putting in their own time and money to develop and host a PvX2 on their own. ~ PheNaxKian talk 18:01, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
- Hopefully we can find someone to host it...not having a builds wiki for the new game would be bad :< --TahiriVeila 18:22, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I'm an outsider who doesn't know hardly anything about this place other than what people say, so I don't know how accurate this opinion is, but here it is anyway. As there are no examples for the contrary, this is just conjecture, but I believe being a dick place is systemic to a site like PvX, because it's a "PvP" site. (Yes, there are builds for farming and shit, but no one really cares about those, or at least they don't provoke the same level of "drama". I think.) Compared to, say, GuildWiki or GWW, those sites are "PvE" sites - they stay the hell away from all things builds. Whenever there is some article that does deal with builds - for example, to kill Rotscale, or complete some quest - those sections are almost always contested. That's not to say that more inane things like timestamps and signatures are not also hot debate topics, stupid things which aren't worth arguing about -- but, my point is, I think having a focus on builds inherently leads to an elitist atmosphere that discourages familiarity and community closeness. Unless a builds site is solely devoted to "recording" builds, i.e. things that are actually in play, you can see it on obs, etc...in other words, if it becomes merely a documentation place of facts rather than a place to create new builds, vote on them, blah blah...it's going to end up like this place has.
See also Daññy's post above. If you're going to be an elitist place, then go for it wholeheartedly. Showing any weaknesses, pretending to be nice, trying to perhaps cater to and baby more sensitive people - that doesn't work. It causes problems because such things go against the innate grain of the site's culture. Those few beginning steps are crucially important and set the tone for how things will be forevermore, barring some great revolutions...because PvX started out elitist, it needed to stay that way. Such steps down another road needed to be done years ago if they were to have any meaningful effect. Places like GuildWiki, or even GWW, started out more friendly and so that's a big reason why they are the way they are today. (T/C) 20:02, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Phen's Wall of Text
this whole idea might have worked better as a blog post or something. In my opinion, there were (are?) a couple of issues. The main one that I see is what exactly PvX is meant to record. Most current users seem to think, like Misery said, that it's "meta". That we should store meta builds and everything else should be relegated to the userspace/somewhere less important (I believe we discussed a "Theorycraft" name space at one point). Me personally (I may be completely alone in this view now, but certainly a long time ago there were others who shared this view), I think we should store builds that work and do a reasonable job, and then sort those builds via the rating system, and allow the users to chose what build they want to do.
Let me give you an example. Lets say that we have some stupidly awesome Farming build (for sake of ease I'll just say the old Shadow form builds for this example, but it could be anything in any given area). Under the first view (Meta only), this would pretty much be the only farming build, and the only others would be ones that covered areas this one couldn't, or for whatever reason managed to do a certain area (or areas) better. However under the second view (It does an OK job), we might say "well this one is a different profession" or "requires less (title) grinding to use, so it's worth a small drop in efficiency". Obviously this doesn't translate so easily to the PvP aspect of the game where it's a bit more "X beats Y" and less "I'm using a worse build, but I have more skill to compensate" (at least it is now).
I think we've slowly moved towards that former view of "meta only" (see removing "other" builds and up-ing the rating requirements). I think it was DE who said "I vote thinking the build should be in trash/(other/)good/great so I rate so that it falls into that category". That to me seems like the more logical thing, where as now we see people who go "this build should be trashed, I'm not going to bother giving it an actual rating, I'll just 0-0 it into the ground" (or the opposite). People seem to be forgetting there is a middle ground (and removing the other section just reinforced that view in my eyes).
It would have been better to (as you said on the main page Auron) "lower the standard of quality a bit in order to foster a more friendly community". That to me doesn't say a change to the RV system (or at least it didn't, it would now =p), but instead peoples attitudes towards builds. I think there is of course a means in which we could incorporate the best of both worlds, which would have been this theorycraft namespace, and then having the build namespace specifically for builds which are meta, or builds from the theorycraft namespace that people have gone "yeh this build is awesome" (obviously there would still be some form of vetting in both namespaces so people can still go "this is better than that", but the point is there's a clear "these are builds everyone thinks are awesome and these are works in progress")
While the main issue to me is the vetting system, I do think it spreads slightly into the admin domain as well. Due to the nature of the vetting system, there will, obviously, be incorrect votes, and it's (or was) the job of the admins to correct this by removing them or informing the user their vote is wrong for XYZ. But the issue with that is, we're assuming we have half a clue about the game, and as such have the right to remove it. I know in the past, we did judge RfAs with how good a person is at the game in mind (with the odd exception (Hhhippo and Wiz. spring to mind mainly)), and that we even had the BM system in place. Again though, the Vetting system allows for such subjective views of a build, it makes it difficult for anybody (regardless of skill i'd argue) to say "This is a crap/bad/good/great build because of XYZ", there are too many things that you'd have to take into account. Yes we can say "it uses these skills, so the math tells us it pumps out 5 million doomages a second", but can you take into account every possible little thing you come up against? Opponents play styles and own builds in the case of PvP? What spawns you'll encounter, and how they'll move or react to various situations in PvE (I know you can to some extent, but I'm making a point =p)?
- I do kind of agree that the current voting system makes a lot of problems. People either 5-5-x or trash vote. I'd much rather have a 10 point rating system (so that there's more of a middle ground) or switch to a qualitative rating system where you vote a build either trash/other/good/great.--TahiriVeila 17:59, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I'm an idiot
I would have to agree with Danny, in all honesty if the site attracted more actual good players and just told the idiots to fuck off it could have worked, but because PvX never really got the higher quality of players to contribute (only a very rare few), it was left with mostly bad players. Bad players vetting builds that good players run makes sense right?
Or of course the documentation way that Misery mentioned would have worked, but the great category was basically that + random Zurrie theorycrafts. Frosty 18:01, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Builds on a wiki? No thanks.
Also: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I'll give you my actual thoughts later (either here or via msn or something). Kinda running out the door with a bleeding lip at the moment.