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m (Remove Andy and Life Guardian Ratings)
(Deletion for the sabotage voting)
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::*Explained in section above.
 
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::[[User:Andy|<font color="Red">'''A'''</font>]][[User Talk:Andy|<font color="Black">'''ndy''']]</font> 18:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
::[[User:Andy|<font color="Red">'''A'''</font>]][[User Talk:Andy|<font color="Black">'''ndy''']]</font> 18:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
  +
:::You're right Andy, with experienced players the enemies wont get past the forntline. But you see, we don't waste time tanking and when taking pug assassins some of the enemies usually slip through. You say just because it is effective elsewhere doesn't mean its effective in the deep. Ok, valid point. The question is how exactly do you measure effectiveness? [[User:Roarer|Roarer]] 18:56, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:56, July 24, 2010

Times?--TahiriVeila 00:16, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Deepphysway
Fairly easy setup to run, due to the problems of running ER bonders countered by the two monk with a copy of Seed of Life each and one UA with overkill Party Heals. Making it the most failsafe way to clear the Deep, without Speedclear Tactics. MinionMinion sig k bish 00:26, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
oh, by the way, six of those people were pugs.--Digit0lDigitalfear SigQu33r 00:45, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
So, why do you use E/Mo's when 90% of the deep doesn't hit over 25 anyways? Life Guardian 02:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
he does have a point. the only foes that do over that damage are outcast but they have mass chilblains anyway - in fact much of the deep has pretty crippling enchant removal (namely why perma never worked) and a room specifically for no enchants which can be skipped, but it's difficult and messy. AthrunAthrun dotFeya 09:56, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Well, Rippers deal quite high damage to casters, and the Aspects themselves. Also sappings throw out alot of packets. Remember there is no designated tank in this team, no one absorbs the damage, so your view on the damage aspect might be slightly twisted. The Outcast mobs are the toughest part, but are a piece of cake when you have Orders and GDW to knocklock. The Anti-Enchant room is actually very easy, and my favourite room; you all ball up on the stairs, then 1...2..3... RUNTOASPECTANDGANK. It's hilarious how effective that method is, and fast. Generally no one dies unless they lag on the run.MinionMinion sig k bish 10:01, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Why exactly do you want to take the tanks out? even with a single tank a balanced looking team can get under 20 easily. AthrunAthrun dotFeya 10:22, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
It's our care-free playing style. Dedicated tanks seem pointless, and we much prefer being able to run into a mob head-first as much as possible, and be out the other end in 5 seconds. Firstly, how does one tank make it 20 20 minutes faster? And having a tank in a melee heavy team is tricky when the mob will quickly decide to change opponents, rendering the "tank" pointless.MinionMinion sig k bish 10:28, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
What the hell are you talking about? AthrunAthrun dotFeya 10:37, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Why no tanks? We don't take tanks. Ever. They aren't needed for any area in the game. Some people like running tank and we're fine with that. Most melee players want to see numbers and this team absolutely gives them that.Roarer 10:45, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Okay so I asked why no tanks and your best reason is that you don't like them... You do realise teams are many more times effective with one, especially in the deep. As proof 1 and 2. The first picture shows you can run something "balanced" like physway, even with a single tank and still achieve pretty nice times. We later refined the build in the first pic to: 1 tank, 1 curses nec, 1 panic mes, 3 monks, 1 weap spell/eoe rit, 1 porogon, 2 100b, 2 hammer warriors (but everyone was too drunk to get a better time) AthrunAthrun dotFeya 10:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
We are offering an alternative. We play for fun, not times.Roarer 10:57, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Infact what the screenshot shows is that if everyone has ally-shadowsteps it speeds rooms up which you can run right past. It's not fun for many people, and difficult to grasp. (tanking that is). MinionMinion sig k bish 11:03, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
how exactly does the screenshot show that? recall is for the gate only... I'd argue tanking deep is one of the most fun things I've done in Guild Wars and near to the sole reason I'll still log on occasionally. AthrunAthrun dotFeya 11:11, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Lets get back to Deep Physway. Discussing the build people have been running in the deep for years seems pointless.Roarer 11:13, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
I've played both going back to extensive 4-4-4 play. It's a hell of a lot more fun getting to haphazardly rush into areas with virtually no consequences than it ever was to do controlled recall shove/meld tank and spank. No doubt this will lead to more "bandwagoning" accusations which is true on both sides of the fence. Try it first, and evaluate it on effectiveness, not on speed. If speed were the only criteria PvX would be a barren wasteland of builds with only 1 "best" option for everything. 71.56.32.112 14:41, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
^ agree. The playerbase need alternatives. They obviously don't enjoy TanknSpank method because no-one plays the Deep anymore bar ZQs. We're trying to bring some fun back to the Elite areas of the game.Roarer 15:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Speed is how you judge effectiveness when it comes to elite areas and guildwars is not fun--Relyk talk 22:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Relyk; this is a game. If you do not play a game for entertainment/fun, what the hell do you play for?MinionMinion sig k bish 22:29, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Which is why i don't get on guildwars as much and play new and exciting games--Relyk talk 22:43, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Then why bitch and whine on PvX if you...oh whatever--Digit0lDigitalfear SigQu33r 23:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Feast of Souls

>Heal Party.Roarer 13:32, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

i agree193.35.132.150 16:08, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Seed of Life>all--Digit0lDigitalfear SigQu33r 18:13, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

SoH

Maintained on 6 ppl without any form of real energy managment? :o Tyrael Strikes Back- 13:33, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Soul reaping says hi. MinionMinion sig k bish 14:42, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
Although if you are struggling, you can take Angorogon's Gaze or SoLS over Smite Hex or the Resurrection skill.MinionMinion sig k bish 10:46, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

sins

wouldn't 100b wars be better if you're using a mop nuker? Notorious BW 05:21, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

We generally use what we can find. Sometimes we use 5 sins 1 war, 4 sins, war, derv, etc. But I still prefer the assassins.MinionMinion sig k bish 06:59, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
aight. Would this same set up work for urgoz? just with necrotic transversal on one of the necros and eoe on the sos? Notorious BW 00:40, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
We did it a few times in about the same time as Deep (40 odd) without the use of EoE. Mainly because none of us knew that it helped for beating Urgoz, but we took him down... Somehow. Even with all the retarded knockdown spams MinionMinion sig k bish 04:15, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

Panic

>Deep.--Digit0lDigitalfear SigQu33r 18:04, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer can be replaced

Mesmer could be an open slot for physicals. Last run we did 6 physicals and it took 37 minutes.

Speed

If you really wanted to finish Deep for it's awesome chest drops, you can probably skip two more rooms; the Sapping that appear after Scorpion room, and Sapping room with the Kana in the middle. But if it were me, I'd want to kill everything for as much loot as possible. MinionMinion sig k bish 07:16, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Remove Andy and Life Guardian Ratings

TROLL

When you post shitty builds, they get trash votes. Cool huh? Andy 01:00, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Funny. I thought we just got a 25 minute run with this exact setup. yeahtrashem.MinionMinion sig k bish 01:27, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Aren't you quite the pro. But I must be missing where speed is mentioned... so my vote still stands. Andy 01:34, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
You've obviously never been to the Deep without a tank. There is damage involved. Cover Enchants exist. Your reasons are ill-thought out.MinionMinion sig k bish 01:45, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
No, you're wrong and you're stupid. This build is far from great, partly because several of your player slots are wasted. The fact you're crying about votes that put this in "Good" is nothing but fucking retarded, as it is far from a "Great" build. Andy 01:51, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
And tank and spank isn't wasting slots with three tanks?MinionMinion sig k bish 02:08, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
At times all three tanks are doing three separate things so no, it is not wasted. Also, why are you comparing it to tank and spank? It's not mentioned in the vote so it's useless trying to fuel this argument with it. Andy 02:13, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Well all your vote mentions is that there's enchant removal. It really doesn't matter if you play properly. Even if you play badly, you'll get results. If you think you can get the same results without PB or tanks, be my guest.MinionMinion sig k bish 02:41, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
If you read it again, you'll find it mentions more than just enchantment removal. You can easily get better results if you use more AoE damage and take advantage of 100b + MoP. A seed monk can easily deal with the damage without prot bond, as nothing (except leviathan, who is ignored) hits hard enough to kill the frontline in a couple of hits. Andy 14:36, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Um, Aspects and Kanaxai says HI and if frontline is wanding stupid, Nightmares. All bark, no bite, your saying this is bad by theory, prove us wrong. Post us a build > this. Otherwise, your argument sucks and your votes get trashed. Oh, post us a picture so your not BSing Infuser God 14:54, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Wow, seriously fix your armour. I'm not going to make physway builds and test them in a game I barely play, just to prove to some idiot that can't see the flaws in his copy paste build. The rest of your post makes no sense so I'm going to ignore it. Stop typing like a retard... unless you are one, in which case just stop typing. Andy 15:14, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Troll arguments are troll. Sorry Andy, you must get out of pre-searing Ascalon to make proper arguments. Infuser God 15:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
I suggest you try re-reading the last sentence in my previous comment. None of the statements in my rating have yet been proven wrong, so I would say my arguments must have been strong. Also, try reading PW:SIGN, it will help with the attempts to not look like a retard. Andy 15:44, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Note to self, custom sign = bad, I've been trying to fix that but couldn't find where to change it (Wiki noob). I get what you are saying, some builds aren't needed, foes aren't that strong, etc. This build is fast and easy. Easy being the key word. When you do deep with a traditional tank-n-spank, get 4 nukers, 3 healers, 3 puller tanks. Puller tanks pulls mob, pulls them into a ball, team waits for call, then spike. With this, the only thing is target and kill. There is hardly any need for Deep experience, no vent needed at all and easily get ~35 minutes. You don't have to worry about noob pullers or noob monks. It is fast and easy, why hate that? Infuser God 16:52, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
As I've already said, I made no comparison between this and tank-n-spank. Using it as part of an argument against my vote is useless. Andy 17:11, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Useless my ass, stop sabotaging our votes troll. It only proves that your votes and suggestions are out of anger, not good arguments. You provide no good evidence to back up your arguments and you done nothing but bash the build. Could I get a IP suspension for Andy? He's just going to keep sabotaging the build out of anger and is not going to provide anything useful until he cools off. Infuser God 17:21, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
1. This isn't GWG, we don't hand out bans for people having opinions. 2. Andy actually knows what he's doing in PvE. 3. Change your signature to resemble your name, Infuser God does not equal Zodiac Meteor. --Short 17:28, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Chill out, Zodiac. Let's just address all the issues Andy has with the setup and why he believes it won't work/be suitable for Deep:
  • Heavy Enchant Removal- Looks like a daunting setback in theory, but in practice all it means is you have to prioritise targeting to the foes that strip and dodge Chilblains. Losing Prot Bond is fine for a few, but losing ER is worse.
  • Two ER= one Seed monk. This... I really do not understand, and I don't believe you are being serious. It means you would have two Seeds of Life, Blood Bond and Feast of Souls keep you up; no Infuse. Explains HOW one monk can replace two ERs, and I'll let it pass. MinionMinion sig k bish 17:29, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
lol--Oskar 17:32, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
(RI)I challenge any of the so-called experts around here to produce a pug that can clear the Deep HM in <40 minutes with no real build restrictions. That means no Steel Wall or any of its variants, no manly, no Spiteful spike, no DwG or any of this other slop circulating around. Put up or shut up. 76.17.97.158 17:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
I've done spiteful spike, it sucks. It's a godly fast team build, but the reason why it sucks is because it requires excellent teamwork, constant communication and no room for error. I got to Kanaxai in 20 minutes, 3 people couldn't get end chest because they fell behind and we couldn't go back for them. It's a godly fast build, but any mistake will cost you the end chest. Manly is the same way, requires perfect team work to work. DwG is tank-n-spank, so yeah...
You don't have to challenge them to play different team builds Minion, I'll tell you that the record fast Manly and Spiteful team builds are hard. Any mistake could kill the team or cost you the end chest. Two guys in the Spiteful run died and was left alone because they were Crippled by thorn flowers and mob got them. Over the few time I've done it, I failed half the time. In the scorpion room, three people had to kill the Spirit of Disenchantment for the shadow meld tank but kills the Jellyfish by accident, leaving the team to the tanks mob that he was holding. Another one is the 3 second + no spell = 50 damage room. Team took more damage than the monks can handle because of the monks was on her high energy set for heal party BEFORE entering the room. At Kanaxai one of warriors aggroed a wondering Sap, team died. Amazingly the one time the entire team made it to Kanaxai with the build. Zodiac Meteor 18:00, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) First, don't edit my comments. Secondly, I'm not angry and I have done nothing to deserve a ban. Thirdly, you want my vote removed - therefore to win this argument I suggest you keep on topic instead of going on about tank-n-spank. Now, Excluded - thank you for making a sensible, understandable and on-topic comment. If you look back, I never said it "won't work/be suitable for deep". I know it works. It's not even just PvE, it's PvE with cons - everything works! Anyway,

  • Although anti-ench may not be as big a problem as it sounds, it takes a big hit on your statements of it being "easy" and "unfailable", which greatly reduces the vote as you're losing reasons to run this over something else.
  • If you look back, I didn't say remove both ER's for a seed monk. Keep one ER ele, but instead of faffing about making things hit for a max of 5% damage, use Life Bond to actually reduce damage of all enemies, giving the monk an easy and consistent target for seed of life, so even when Life Bond is stripped, enough will still have it and being hit to over-heal the damage done to those that :lost it.

Andy 18:09, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • 1 Look at my manly spike and spiteful spike argument, this is faster than those because it failed less. The wipes were mistakes and the people that got stuck in enemy mob were left unless they were expendable. It maybe 15-25 minutes and a good runs are awesome, but the people mess up or lagged for a second, unable to rez because one guy died in a mob while using a locked chest, it wasn't worth it. On top of that, finding people for Deep with the right builds, professions and vent for the in my own old guild/alliance took an hour and thirty minutes.
  • 2 That would work fine, but it's pretty much unneeded because it's not much of a game changer. No one died because their bond was to strong or to weak. I would place that as a optional bond if the ER is feeling lazy.
But is this really worth a 3.0 rating because an optional skill and speed is better than risk? Zodiac Meteor 18:26, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
You keep banging on about other builds that aren't relevant to this at all. I suggested that in response to Excludeds' comment, it is the start of a long list of reasons it is 3-3, not the only one. Andy 18:33, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
How are they not relevant? They deep team builds, something to compare this one to. That sounds important to me. I'm not banging on them either, their godly fast. They suck because it's risky, when everything about a good run is relying on how skilled the players are. Badly skilled players make and break those builds. Besides 15 minute deep > 35 minute deep. Does that mean it's better? No. Zodiac Meteor 18:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
It's not relevant because it is not mentioned in the vote and it is not used as a reason against the effectiveness of this build. Andy 18:50, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Lightning Reflexes > Dwarven Battle Stance

The 33% IAS and 75% blocking can be kept up 24/7, no need for Dwarven Battle Stance for the IAS. Zodiac Meteor 17:43, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

That was Drunken Master; and you don't even need Dwarven Stability either. But meh, we need to put these physical builds somewhere else- Looks messy.MinionMinion sig k bish 17:49, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion for the sabotage voting

This is ridiculous, build deletion because people sabotaged the voting. Can I have fix soon?

  • Badly thought out builds. (Explain? Which is bad? Why are they bad? How are they bad?)
  • Very few enemies in the deep hit enough for prot bond to be useful. (Somewhat true, but squishy casters are squishy.)
  • 3 or 4 of the builds can be replaced by one seed monk with no loss in survivability. (Which ones? How, why, what? No explanations)
  • Mass anti-ench in deep makes it generally suck (chillbanes, aspect of shadows, disenchantment spirit, feedback). (That's not a problem, established)
  • Although physicalway is a perfectly acceptable and effective way of dong the deep, this is really not the way to do it. (If it's effective then it's not the way?)
If people are copy+paste arguments, at least answer these unanswered questions. I hardly believe that these are real votings because they just copied what they liked. The only good argument is the protection bond one. Zodiac Meteor 18:39, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Its perfectly acceptable to copy and paste other peoples votes as it does not violate PvX:Real Vetting--Oskar 18:42, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, lets take a look at these.
  • This point covers all other statements. Most the builds were copied from another area with almost no changes, despite The Deep being very different to other areas. Just because the builds work well in other areas, does not mean they work to exactly the same effectiveness in The Deep.
  • You have 5-6 physicals. We're talking about competent players, as was suggested earlier. If they can get past 5-6 physicals to the backline then you're seriously fucking bad. lolpve.
  • Explained in section above.
  • Explained in section above.
  • Explained in section above.
Andy 18:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
You're right Andy, with experienced players the enemies wont get past the forntline. But you see, we don't waste time tanking and when taking pug assassins some of the enemies usually slip through. You say just because it is effective elsewhere doesn't mean its effective in the deep. Ok, valid point. The question is how exactly do you measure effectiveness? Roarer 18:56, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
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