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Discuss freely! took me a day to create this.

Wat? my mind just popped at the aspect of not having to wait for 4 hours for 1 monk, W/A, or SS...wish I could try this out, looks plausible.--IkimonoThinks before commentingParagon-icon-small 15:17, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
But shouldn't there be a note or something about the hero casters not having caster weapons...? IE: Spears only?--IkimonoThinks before commentingParagon-icon-small 15:19, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
i think the monk player could better be an imbagon...:D82.72.233.33 13:24, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
If a four player joins the battle, he/she can take the place of the Angelic bonder, as an imbagon.Borotvalt 13:50, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
...i just thought about something. You have 1 tank in this whole team. it usually takes at least 2 doesn't it to wall for deep?--IkimonoThinks before commentingParagon-icon-small 15:26, 3 November 2008 (EST)
We don't need to wall. he tanks them, and the barragers+nukers+ss necro kills them. the damage that can befall to the party will be mitigated by the paragons. Borotvalt 02:47, 4 November 2008 (EST)
You two having a competition? Andy 13:38, 19 November 2008 (EST)
You didn't see the deletion tag?PikaFanLightningbolt sig 13:42, 19 November 2008 (EST)
You misunderstood. The competition was who could make the deep build that made me laugh most. Andy 11:49, 21 November 2008 (EST)
no u, that's why the deletion tags were there in the first place, innit?PikaFanLightningbolt sig 23:43, 23 November 2008 (EST)

Nou. That's why there should be one here too. Andy 18:28, 26 November 2008 (EST)

the monk hero's

may replace them by necro healers like http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/Mo_Healer's_Boon_Hero ?Illoyon 12:38, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Add into the variants section if you would like to. Anyway in Kanaxai's chamber N/mo healers are really f---ed up Borotvalt 13:19, 19 November 2008 (EST)
Honestly, it probably doesn't matter too much since the deep isn't all that hard, but a N/Rt probably is one of the better options with party heals and nice versatility. I would however say that using one of your player slots for an elementalist that's just going to play a nuker is a waste. Running something that actually uses pve skills to their fullest (imbagon...) would be much more useful to the party. Besides, if you take an imbagon it really doesn't matter what the rest of your team is (to a point). 71.202.180.150 03:03, 25 November 2008 (EST)

kinda confusing/dont know if you know

I dont know if you mean the 3 humans fight to the heroes or if they do the unflag trick, which is where you flag heroes into the portals, humans all go into the smae one (the last portal) then they all unflag their heroes and the heroes will then magically appear in the room with the players after a few seconds.

I dont know if that is the trick you're referring to, as from the sounds of the guide, it seems as if you want to fight to the rooms with the heroes, which you do not need to do.

Also, I'd like to do this as Imbagon, using the trick I mentioned. IGN Shyly Hinor. GMT+0

Interesting idea... If it works then Deep is fun again. AND IT WORKS. OH MY GOD THIS WORKS!!!!! DEEP IS OWNED.


Btw: thanks Borotvalt 10:18, 20 November 2008 (EST) (well It's always fun)

np, I'd stil be up for it though and my ign is there ^. Also opens up what profs the humans can be a bit more, so maybe a variation for each class thats played by a human or something? Obviously, some humans could fill a hero role etc.

Could someone explain to me how a hero splinter barrage ranger can go to The Deep, but any human ranger that ever wants to go doesn't have a chance in the world?Stryk the Lightning 19:17, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Hi guys, i have given this team build an overview (might be handy). rupsie 05:47, 21 November 2008 (EST)

All theese builds can be played as human players. But for the first part (the split) 3 man 9 hero is optmal... But if the team can handle it, then nothing can stop you. Borotvalt 08:59, 21 November 2008 (EST)

Alos, everyone in the deep outpost thinks cryway is the only build that can do deep lol. JONO51 12:51, 21 November 2008 (EST)
They are noobs. Cryway is nerfed (no more rebirth trick) Borotvalt 03:43, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Apparently you are the noob. Even with rebirth nerf, cryway is just as fast Andy 20:15, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Still, the point is that the Deep can be done with more than one team build.Stryk the Lightning 02:00, 23 November 2008 (EST)
Wrong, it IS slower, simply it doesn't really affect a good party, just extending the run a few minutes at the most.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 23:46, 23 November 2008 (EST)
Hi guys, I'm trying to do this flag trick with 2 mates and me. We get 3 heros plus us in the final area but the other teleport back to the starting position. What am i doing wrong? Or do i leave 2 sets of heros flagged and fight to them with the 6 of us? Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 07:36, 26 November 2008 (EST)
dunno. may have to test it. ING: borotvalt gandalf.
So: flag heroes to the starting point, one hero group to first portal, they go in the second portal and cancel flags. Borotvalt 02:15, 30 November 2008 (EST)
Yeah, i added that to the build strat bit for the plit JONO51 05:33, 30 November 2008 (EST)

needs moar creative name!

something other than <insert any word>way if you dont mind :D Midget chinese 01:15, 24 November 2008 (EST)

well... better than erf shakur. might change it Borotvalt 14:01, 24 November 2008 (EST)

Is it possible for a Ranger human to take some heroes while running splinter barrage? If so, which heroes should the Ranger bring?Stryk the Lightning 19:58, 25 November 2008 (EST)

Of course it is possible. Bring then one more Searing flames elementalist, but don't forget to bring Knockdown. And having dodge or a speed boost helps. just be the first to knock down kanaxai. Borotvalt 08:35, 26 November 2008 (EST)

hmm

Bet it doesnt work, prove me otherwise. --Anonimous. 18:32, 26 November 2008 (EST)

lol well you're a positive chap arent you Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 07:59, 27 November 2008 (EST)
Absolutely, but this build doesnt work. Go prove otherwise. --Anonimous. 08:12, 27 November 2008 (EST)
it does work. granted, it's slower than cryway, but it's still viable.--mdragon1023 07:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Name Change

Unless you are being a clown, you dont run this hence the reason for name change. --Anonimous. 08:21, 27 November 2008 (EST)

We know it's a joke, but don't take it too far.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 08:59, 27 November 2008 (EST)
I havent tried this build yet but if you look at the comments above there are alot of people who have and say it works well. Why dont you stop being a douche that thinks renaming builds makes him a "funny guy" and go try the build yourself. You could easily type in EVERY build on this wiki "prove to me that this works?" ... you think anyone here wants to spend time with you to show that things work or dont work? I think you're flattering yourself. Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 09:03, 27 November 2008 (EST)
The moment I saw glimmer of light, I fainted. Same thing happened when I saw orison on the LoD bar.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 09:05, 27 November 2008 (EST)
lol Like i said Pika i havent tried the build so i dont want to defend it too much in case it doesnt work but at least orison is an HB bar. Orison + HB can be quite effective in PvE in certain areas, but like i say. I'd want to try this before i judge it. Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 09:49, 27 November 2008 (EST)
Just reread the build. The orison is on the LoD bar. Eek. Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 09:53, 27 November 2008 (EST)
I run orison on HB, so I know it's decent, but orison without HB is bad.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 10:24, 27 November 2008 (EST)
Dont ask us to try it. Try yourself, post screenshot with /age. --Anonimous. 10:47, 27 November 2008 (EST)
Anonimous, This isnt even my build. All i'm saying is there is alot of people saying that it works. I havent tried it. I just think before you say things dont work and start changing build names you should try them. I'm inclined not to trust the musings of someone who can't spell "anonymous". Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 11:37, 27 November 2008 (EST)
People say a lot of things. This build is a joke, why are you asking me to waste my time on it for you? You think it works so go to deep, click Hard Mode, complete it with this yourself, upload screenshot with /age. --Anonimous. 11:59, 27 November 2008 (EST)
But, it doesnt take a genious to see it will do pretty qell regardless. You end up with 12 in one room at the start. You arent gonna fail there. All of the other required things for the deep are present, e.g. KD, shivers for kanaxai, recallers etc. Sure, some skills would be better switched around, but its far from being unviable lol. JONO51 13:10, 27 November 2008 (EST)
It is unviable, b/p team can clear deep and it was soon after factions release but it was a clown party and doesnt make it any viable. You want to prove that this is good, submit a screenshot already! --Anonimous. 13:58, 27 November 2008 (EST)
gw449xd6.jpg There's your pic. Bear in mind it was a first run, didnt have that much experience in the deep really and there is room for improvement in quite a few area's. So err yeah JONO51 16:13, 29 November 2008 (EST)

Try it!

I suggest that those who want to try it leave there their ingame names and then we can do it.
Mine is: Monk-icon-small Gyo Gyi To

Borotvalt 08:05, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Monk-icon-small Pika Fan. I will never play the glimmer or LoD build, though.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 08:21, 28 November 2008 (EST)
I'm in - IGN Wild Will Tbagya - Tank, Necro or Ele Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 08:27, 28 November 2008 (EST)
IGN=I Replacement Monk, i can def. run HB, maybe glimmer or LoD-- mesmer skills are meh on humans, i cant heal and rupt wortha shit. my war can tank or i can be a nukker--Guru 11:35, 28 November 2008 (EST)
So you havent tried it yet lmao? --Anonimous. 11:44, 28 November 2008 (EST)
If you want it tested so badly maybe you should lend a hand eh?Stryk the Lightning 13:01, 28 November 2008 (EST)
IGN Shyly Hinor. Can run imbagon. pretty sure I have the abaility to run any of the hero builds. JONO51 13:02, 28 November 2008 (EST)
  • Guru: HB monks (Mo/E) are allowed and strongly suggested for humans.
  • JONO51: for the imbagon, it will need a 6man 6hero setup. (might add it in order to be more viable.)
  • Wildstab: It will depend on the party i think :) I can run all too (tank, nuker, healer).
  • PikaFan: HB monk or WoH monk is a viable variation.
To all: It is a very flexible build. For the monks, Essence bond is a viable energy-source. For the 6/6 version, the change is only that you will have two tanks, two nukers, and two healers. So 1 tank 1 nuker 1 healer will be in a group, and you will spit to two groups. Each group brings 3 heroes, and does the unflag trick. then there will be more recall, so the 5 pedestal area can be much easier to do. Anyway it's up to you. The 6-6 can do proper warrior-walling. Borotvalt 13:46, 28 November 2008 (EST)
I will be in-game.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 14:25, 28 November 2008 (EST)
lol sry PikaFan forgot to write that HB monk is a good idea. Borotvalt 02:04, 29 November 2008 (EST)
Cant wait for screenshots, need a laugh. --Anonimous. 05:40, 29 November 2008 (EST)
I can't be bothered either way, I am just passing time till my next project.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 05:57, 29 November 2008 (EST)
1 hour 20 minutes to kill kanaxai. 3 minutes to kill the nightmares. For a group without vent/ts and for the first or second time in deep, it's a quite good time. Anyway it was only NM. We are looking forward to try it in HM. Borotvalt 16:29, 29 November 2008 (EST)
YOU CALL ONE HOUR AND A HALF ON NOOB MODE FINE ARE YOU MAD???!!! It is damn horrible you do HARD MODE runs in less than 25 minutes with vent/ts organized party and about an hour for random party.
But I needed a laugh and you made me laugh hard, thanks for that atleast. --Anonimous. 16:34, 29 November 2008 (EST)
tbh with heroes and a pretty new build, it was okay. Besides, your running cryway, everyone knows it imba etc. JONO51 16:37, 29 November 2008 (EST)
Tbh you have no idea what I was running. Even for a heroway 1:20 normal mode is trash. --Anonimous. 16:39, 29 November 2008 (EST)

(reset indent) Deep was designed to be normally 1 and half hour long normal mode. And for those 25 minute hm and 15 minute hm runs: they are using ridiculously overpowered skills arenanet shouldn't had ever introduced to the game. Forgive us for not using ridiculously overpowered 3-2-1 spike builds and using an actual balanced that needs to be polished one more time. You might not heard the term: Game balance or Skill balance. And it was a first-time run with heroes. And THAT is the most powerful side of the build. You can run it with 3 man 9 heroes or 4 man 8 heroes (but that takes at least two minutes to free-up the player who got stuck at the aspect.Borotvalt 16:42, 29 November 2008 (EST)

I dont give damn what deep was normally supposed to take. --Anonimous. 16:50, 29 November 2008 (EST)
srsly tho, it was fun, it worked, didnt take TOO long and it was easy. its not trah tho, maybe not GREAT category but good or other is a definate. beside, there are many changes tht could be made to the build to improve it, that's why its back in trial...--Guru 20:24, 29 November 2008 (EST)
Not only that but it provides a pretty solid alternative to those who dont want to or cant run cryway. As in, its great for those who wanna go get the statue because you could fit pretty much any prof in tbh JONO51 05:32, 30 November 2008 (EST)
To Guru:
Lot of things just work. You need them to work well. Thing you must be sure about is that you are not using skills to their full potential here. Use common sense if you have some, 1:20 on normal mode with full party is trash, 6 man human party with no heroes clears NM in less than an hour.
To JONO51:
You only ever mention cryway for deep clears, this shows exactly how little knowledge you have of the area.
To Borotvalt:
Nobody has ever officially stated how long deep must take you. At first, with level of knowledge people had at the time of factions release it might have taken alot of time to complete. As people were getting better at it inventing new ways to complete the mission, completion times went down. The whole reason they introduced these elite missions is to CREATE A HARD CHALLENGE FOR PLAYERS TO GET BETTER AT! Are elite missions harder compared to other areas? They sure are, proves my point completely.
From what I can see you people have no idea. You look at 15min. deep screenshot and think that it must be so easy, you dont understand that people on the screenshot are probably most expert pve players and how much practice and organization it has taken them to achieve this level. Go take cryway, take cons, complete it in 15min. With your level of skill? I doubt that is going to happen. --Anonimous. 06:08, 30 November 2008 (EST)
I only ever mention cryway because thats all pugs take. you expect me to know what guilds etc are running without every having been in them or see them say a word in outposts? Lol. Not only that, but you call us inexperienced and that 1.20 is trash, yet at the same time you say there's no way we can do a fast clear. What are we meant to be getting then? JONO51 06:29, 30 November 2008 (EST)
There is no way you can do fast clear because you are unexpirienced. Makes perfect sense, get better at this. --Anonimous. 06:34, 30 November 2008 (EST)
Yeah thats pretty damn obvious. It was a first run of the build, of course its gonna get faster. Doesn't take a genious to figure that out.... JONO51 08:15, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Cryway does not take skill. The reason people cry the deep in 15 mins is because they've done it a lot. The build itself doesnt take much thinking power to make work. The records were done calling on vent etc, making it all coordinated. The people also know each others play styles, so arent asking what to do, there's less indecisiveness. In short, it doesnt take skill, it just takes repetition. <------(this comment was added by an IP guy)Borotvalt 12:46, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Sign?
Doing it a lot = expirience = skill, your argument is moot. Those people are machines, they know deep so well they can do it with their eyes closed.
If you think beating records and inventing new efficient builds for pve takes no skill why havent you made any? --Anonimous. 11:03, 30 November 2008 (EST)
I answer the question for him: Arenanet sucked PvE with EOTN. Anyway for deep All you need is: 2 tanks, 5 nukers, bip, support and 3 monks (HB/UA). Borotvalt 12:07, 30 November 2008 (EST)
Note that, that this build completes it in NM at around 45 minutes if the team is decent. If the team is good, It might do it in half an hour.
Yea but this team is not decent or good and for your notice pve-only skills appeared before eotn and even then pve wasnt any hard.
Thats 3 tanks and stop failing at sign. --Anonimous. 12:13, 30 November 2008 (EST)
experience doesnt equal skill. theres a big difference in skill between someone who say only farms uw and has done if for 2000 hours and someone who has played top100 gvg for 2000hrs. Anyway, yeah, pve skills made stuff stupidly easy i agree. 13:00, 30 November 2008 (EST)
Yeah because the top100 gvg guy will suck balls at making 7 min. smite runs like pve farmbot will suck at playing high end gvg. Why? Because neither would have enough expirience doing what they have never done before. You are only proving my point further. --Anonimous. 16:09, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Well that proves that experience is independant of skill, and that they are not the same doesnt it?

Sign more fucksake. ]:<
No, that doesnt mean that. It means that expirience = skill.--Anonimous. 16:31, 1 December 2008 (EST)

6/6 version

discuss Borotvalt 02:39, 29 November 2008 (EST)

Well, I am still around, pm me in game should you have enough people to start.PikaFanLightningbolt sig 03:29, 29 November 2008 (EST)
Looks good to me, and im still up for it too ^^ JONO51 05:38, 29 November 2008 (EST)
Same here, pm me in game --I Replacement Monk-- and i'll be glad to join up =P --Guru 12:40, 29 November 2008 (EST)

look shitters

[[1]] Two people, six heroes. 45 minute noob mode run. --Anonimous. 06:14, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Screenshot? Also where will be your energy at Kanaxai? No Bip, minions will die. kthxbai Borotvalt 12:17, 30 November 2008 (EST)
Party is full of discord necroes you idiot they never run out of energy and kill fast as anything. I ask that guy for screenshot. --Anonimous. 16:11, 30 November 2008 (EST)
Apparently You are the idiot, because the minions will quickly die at kanaxai, and without creatures constantly dying near the necros they won't get energy. If you choose to fight with all thoose nightmares to get deaths, they will drain your energy and you die.Borotvalt 02:20, 1 December 2008 (EST)
If your discord necroes run our of energy and cant kill shit fast enough you are doing it wrong. Im no idiot here, you are. --Anonimous. 03:26, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Back up your argument about the reason they don't run out of energy.Borotvalt 08:57, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Soul reaping, 4 pips energy regen. --Anonimous. 10:48, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Minions at Kanaxai die within 4 or 5 seconds. and no pips of energy from them. Borotvalt 11:51, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Understand that you have never played anything decent before but let me inform you that IT DOES NOT TAKE WEEKS TO KILL KANAXAI WITH THAT BUILD!!!
Kanaxai attacks always double strike and have high rate, this means that he would take a lot of damage from ss, empathy, insidous parasite. On top of it the party should have 6-7 discord necroes SPAMMING ARMOR IGNORING DAMAGE. Kanaxai will fall quickly.
You judge people by yourself and are being wrong, there are good players. --Anonimous. 12:04, 1 December 2008 (EST)
PvX:CHILLPikaFanLightningbolt sig 12:05, 1 December 2008 (EST)
That policy doesnt fit here.--Anonimous. 13:11, 1 December 2008 (EST)
It does. I wish it was still PvX:STFU though. That would be more applicable. Xsig 16:36, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Wish all these shitters arguing with me would stfu and tagged this for well already.
There is clever note in that policy: "This is not a tool to be used against someone in an argument. If you find yourself involved in an escalating situation, simply follow the guideline yourself. Suggesting that others involved review this policy may inflame the situation." If you are going to CHILL go, using it to derail discussions is faggotry. Stop being faggots. --Anonimous. 08:56, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Except it was suggested by a third party uninvolved in the discussion. You've thrown around enough ad hominem attacks to warrant a short break. Someone fix my spelling, my latin is bad. - Misery Is Friendly Misery Dog obaby 08:59, 2 December 2008 (EST)
ups ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹPanic srsbsns 09:09, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Are we really leaving this build named Clownway, especially with the new intro about being a clown? Clowns scare me. Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 10:47, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Personally I think Anonimous is being a douchebag about the whole thing. Feel free to rename it and fix the description, I am too lazy. - Misery Is Friendly Misery Dog obaby 10:54, 2 December 2008 (EST)
The whole discussion page has turned into a shitload of crap to be quite honest. JONO51 12:59, 2 December 2008 (EST)

(reset)So with Anonimus' attacks driven away, now we can finally think about the build's improvement. It can be improved.Borotvalt 13:48, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Being all sensitive about my attacks you could not possibly think about what caused them. Took you long to start thinking again but better late than never right?
This build needs improvement. Lot of orderless physicals, barrage ritualists, funny monk bars, lack of imbagon, single tank ect. are going nowhere as long as you want to compete with conventional ways of going through Deep.
That was quick sum up. Going to write wall of text later. --Anonimous. 18:25, 3 December 2008 (EST)
Agreed. Imbagon added, not sure about the MB hero though.Borotvalt 10:53, 4 December 2008 (EST)
There arent any orders because atm we are running conglag to switch all the ranger damage to fire and trigger off mark of rodgort.l Then put up a winter at kanaxai.
Essentially, orders would be useless for the build in its current state. Besides IMO, if you start adding orders, you mayaswell just turn it into a 12man phys-way. JONO51 12:37, 4 December 2008 (EST)
Honestly MoR is useless. High mana cost and you dont need it running alot of SF's. SF damage would be better because there are alot of places where your rangers would get obscured meaning either no damage dealt by you or placing tank's hold at risk.
You are wrong about orders, in current state using barragers and paragons for dealing main bunch of damage it is physical based team. Physical based with no orders is awful. --Anonimous. 12:35, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Improvements

Thought it would be best to put this undr a new header. Anyway, added YMLAD to the imbagon build up there as we all learned that it would have been the best thin to have on the last run :P Also, been thinking about maybe having a 9 spec resto life on the ele bar, as its passive heal that can give the monks a little aid in their heal party spam. Maybe the other one (Rejuvination?) could go there. Just wondering about it before I add it. JONO51 15:37, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Changes/ideas: Imbagon and VoR mesmer added to 3man. Another variant for tank heroes, though not sure whether to change it to SF or not. Also Ineptitude mesmer for monk heroes, to cause blind and other damage to kanaxai.Borotvalt 10:49, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Physical team idea:

Anonimus' suggestion, the creation of a Physical-way for deep(possibly with 3man 9 heroes) is a nice one. My ideas are: 2 imbagons, 2 healers, 3 w/a physicals using Ymlad, 5 barragers, 1 dazer and 1 orders. It's an unrefined idea still. So siggestions, constructive criticism is welcome.Borotvalt 13:15, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Personally, I'd say something like: 1 imbagon, 2 earthshakers w/ recall and YMLAD, 1 orders, 2 hybrid monks, 1 weapon spells + few spirits that may be needed, and 5 general dmg physicals.
If you're going to go crazy with melee, you might consider running an ER Smiter Ele. They're pretty fantastic with enough melee. Kabu To 23:42, 4 December 2008 (EST)
or 12 paragons to just kick everything's ass and tank through everything without need of using things like Recall.--72.189.85.14 00:42, 5 December 2008 (EST)
12 para's running through the deep would be pretty bigtime. lol. I'm in. Gimme head! Wild blows Image-wildblows 03:53, 5 December 2008 (EST)
You can tank it all with imbagon in its current state anyway though. You'd just want recall for kanaxai's chamber and the room with the switches. JONO51 12:23, 5 December 2008 (EST)
Imbagons are sooo imba...when they gonna get nerfed? The Immolate Invert Wojo 12:30, 5 December 2008 (EST)
Why two imbagons? --Anonimous. 12:50, 5 December 2008 (EST)
Because the imbagon adds armor to other party members, while he remains vunerable. Especially with Aggressive Refrain.Borotvalt 02:55, 6 December 2008 (EST)
only need one imbagon...--Relyk chtistmas2ChristmasRelyk 03:13, 6 December 2008 (EST)
Okay. Borotvalt 06:47, 7 December 2008 (EST)
Gonna start a new team page thing then? JONO51 08:24, 7 December 2008 (EST)
Build:Team - Physical Deep Heroes Here we go!Borotvalt 13:30, 7 December 2008 (EST)

well...that was an interesting few minutes reading this stuff. psychology class would be so boring if i didnt have this stuff in front me Funkopotomis 21:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

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