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Build:Mo/R Dwarven Deliverance

You removed my vote with the reason "Stop theorycrafting with math." How is that a valid reason to remove my vote? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Because "this heals for +X Health and this heals for +X Health, so the first +X is a higher # than the second +X, so the first +X must be a better build than the second +X. Also, a third +X % makes one of the +X's better, but I can't remember which +X it was because my face just got by spiked off by that giant thing with laser beams for arms" is a pointless reason. Something like "HB heals more efficiently and provides better spike heals" would make more sense. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:34, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
So justifying opinion with fact is bad? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 18:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Numbers don't always play a role in efficiency. Being able to run something "because it works well" is often more important than crunching numbers. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:39, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
(ec)Math is a terrible way to theorycraft in GWs, understanding practical applications of game mechanics is a great way to. — Skakid 18:39, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
And using both is worse than just using one? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 18:41, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
You sterilized the game down to a series of numbers which was a complete misrepresentation of actual gameplay. That's bad theorycraft. --71.229 18:42, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
The game is a series of numbers being passed between peers and the server, so treating it as such is wrong? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 18:44, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Yea. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 18:46, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
By that logic, all builds should be based around the premise of this, with individual calculations of each and every skill execution being necessary. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
In other words, get cracking. There's quite a lot of rewriting calculations that needs to be done. You'll be as good as Ensign in no time! — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Cleave does more DPS than Eviscerate, so why isn't Cleave used? You're looking at one tiny aspect out of probably a thousand and pretending it's the only one there is. --71.229 18:50, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Eviscerate has DW and more spike damage. Healers dont need 3 party heals and 2 other skills to support them. HB is just better. I used numbers to show that HB actually has better party healing. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 18:53, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
See, now you're introducing more dimensions and we're inching towards reality. HB/HP is good, except for the inability to chain it with itself and the necessity of packing a BiP necro. --71.229 18:55, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Read my vote, HP heals almost twice as much, so no need for chain it with itself since its better then chaining weak heals. And u dont need BiP, just GoLE. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
I've been in situations where I've needed to chain HP, and GoLE only gives two free casts. That build is for areas with severe AoE, where you will end up in situations where you need to chain party heals for long periods of time. Also, your numbers don't account for recharge. 2s recharge = two weak heals in the time it takes to cast one HP, which comes out as equivalent healing for less energy. --71.229 19:00, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
(ec) Which is great, except considering that a) Your party would be healed for a large chunk at once, rather than successful heals, thus resulting in massive overhealing using HB compared to consistent healing with the build mentioned above and b) You have no synergy with Deny Hexes.
I can theorycraft too. However, note that I'm not using math here, and basing it more on what actually happens. And I'm not saying that HB is a bad build or anything. Just saying that because of stupid math, your reason changes from one that's valid and competant to one that's fallacious and worthless. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:58, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Hex stacks are rare in PvE, so removing 3 is unneccessay. Remove Hex has a better recharge and cure hex leet healing with HB. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:01, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Wow, you missed the point entirely. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:02, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Before any more brains get hurt, the point is: revote without a reason that gives unnecessary, pointless number-crunching. I even provided a somewhat-valid reasoning basis for you to post. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:03, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

I feel like finishing this first before revoting. Theres nothign wrong with number-crunching. I used it to compare the healing capasities of two builds to show one was superior. Why is this so bad as a reason so much that u remove it? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:08, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Because of the reason I said above. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:09, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
That its worthless and I should demonstrate knowledge of the game instead of a calculator? I got that. U still havent convinced me that that's correct. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Then that's a deficiency that you might have to live with. =P — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:11, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Small, cheap, quicker party heals are > Large, expensive, slower party heals. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:13, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
With gole, theyre the same speed and cost, just HP has a lower recharge, takes 1 slot, and heals for more. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:15, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
You missed the "I don't usually run around with my party missing 200 HP before healing them" and "overhealing is bad" parts. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:16, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
What could heal the party for more and longer, HB with glyph and party or LoD, HD, and DH, with 33%+ recharge cut off. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:18, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
And the "two casts before it starts raping your energy with a nailbat covered in bullet ants" part too. --71.229 19:19, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
I mean there is nothing wrong with Healers Boon, sure it rapes my build at direct healing, but that is not what my build is designed or used for. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:20, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
@rapta. Its 108 hyealth healed. If ur keeping ur team at <100 health lost, ur bad cuz ur overhealign anyways. @Lann, HB has MUCH better single target heals which is what is needed in PvE, big AoE spikes are what is important to counter, which is best done with HP/HB. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
(ec)You can not spam hp like mad or your enrgy is fucked up, as opposed to the lod build that spams party wide heals like crazy wile keeping the party hexless and having imbaspirit for good single party emember healing. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
THIS IS FOR AREAS WITH HEAVY AOE. HEAVY AOE. AREA-OF-EFFECT. MULTIPLE PEOPLE. ALL THE TIME. --71.229 19:23, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Stop spamming Rapta's talk page or he will get mad. Why don't you talk on the build talk page? --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:26, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
(ec)AND STUFF ON HM SPAMMS AOE ALOT UP TO 50% FASTER SKILL RECHRGE FOR SOME MOBS YOU WONT BE ABLE TO COVER THAT AOE SPAM WITHOUT SPAMMING HP LIKE CRAZY AND FUCKING UP YOUR ENRGY BUT YOU CAN SPAM LOD AND DUBLICATES AS MUCH AS YOU WANT YES GG, PARTY WIDE HEALS ARE VERY HAWT. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:27, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Stop talking about the build. This has to do with my vote being removed because I used math. The build is just an example and its relatively unimportant. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:28, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

In a nutshell: because it had invalid math and stupid reasoning behind the math. Plus your reasoning with the math suggested the above. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:29, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

It's quite an innovative way for rebarring constantly for your entire party. And otherwise, I don't mind having a somewhat meaningful discussion take place here, if you guys are able to teach/other guy learns/no trolling is occurring. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 19:28, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Invalid how? Its not wrong, and it compares numbers correctly, so how invalid? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:30, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
No trolling as you can see, lol I even had a debate with you thats didnt turn into endless flaming and QQing and some kind of dodgy rageban. :P --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:31, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
"IMO this is inferior to a HB withHP". Opinion right there. Not Fact. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:34, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Ya it even says "In my opinion" :P --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:36, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Not anymore. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Better now? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:35, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Lol no even worse, I lolled at spike heal beat, yea right, 2 sec cast spike heals even 15 seconds minimum. delete. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:38, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
" This makes single target heals > party heals for most situations" Not what my build is designed for. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
"This only has one single heal which heals for <150 (with DF)." Not what my build is designed for. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
"HB heals more efficiently and provides better spike heals." Mine is not designed for spike healing, HB does not heal more efficiently party wise because often over naught you will end up overhealing for 15e with HB+HP. More efficent spike healing is irrelative. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:38, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
All monk builds have to do that. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
All teams run two monks. --71.229 19:40, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Lol. /highfive Btw mine does have spike heals, even has an optional slot for you ressmonkey so you can put more in there if you want. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:41, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Imbaspirit is enough for a single target heal, in general this build will spam large party heals ALL THE TIME without any enrgy problems wereas you cant cast hp two times in a row without fucking up ur enrgy. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:41, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
(5 million EC's)I could make a ranger bar with solely interrupts and claim it's perfect for ONLY interrupting. I don't dislike the build and believe it should get vetted, but prefer HB because it can party heal and single target heal both decently. Having said that, I love prots, so I wouldn't run either of the bars. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 19:42, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Also, as User:Morten said, it is noobproof, which means it works with 90% of the people in gw, not the 10% you play HB team builds with resmonk. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:43, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
And another thing, it's tagged PvE:General. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:44, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Noobproof only applies to AB and RA lol. Anyways, so are the HB monks, whats ur point? --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
SPAMMING PARTY WIDE HEALZ ALOT AND WIN FUCKING PVE!!!!! --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:46, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Fuck monks, take 8 SF eles and u win PvE. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Then your point is irrelative. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:48, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Im tired so yh party wide healz heal all of ur party /fact. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:49, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
I think he hates LoD. I think he likes HB. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:50, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
That build is a build. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:53, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Yeah. I think HB works in more areas. Your build might be better for some areas, but I dont know what those are... AND THE BUILD IS A BUILD!!!!!!!! --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 19:54, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Read the talk page. Creating a build for the sake of creating a build is not good. A build has to be designed with a specific purpose in mind. What would do a job better at healing the party. HB with HP or Build:Mo/R Dwarven Deliverance. --Lann-sf2 Lann 19:58, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
I think this discussion is about a build. And actually consistently spamming party wide heals is good but in some way I have to agree, that build still isnt a good on-target healer, no matter the imbaspirit. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 20:00, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
You gave 2 areas on the discussion. Both of which are solved by this: spreading out. I do it wiht my heroes all the time. Just flag them in some triangular formation out of range of eachother and problem solved. Also, if playing with people with brains, problem disappears too. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 20:02, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
What if you got hit by sf or ri? from multiple creatures --Super Igor *ninja!!* 20:03, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Then u need spike heals because you should be spread out enough that they wont pwn ur entire team. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Not with 90% of the gw population. And you didn't answer my question. Which would be better. The one designed specifically for party heals or the one thats not. --20:07, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
The one thats not because you should spread out so that it becomes spike heals instead of party wide ones. --- Monk-icon-Ressmonkey Ressmonkey (talk) 20:08, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

I give up. Your not getting the focus of the build. --Lann-sf2 Lann 20:12, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, going into pve without any party wide heals is bad, but yh agree with ress too, you do need to spread out. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 20:16, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
The fact of the matter is, most people don't. --Lann-sf2 Lann 20:18, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
No more frenzy on warriors, people are bad at canceling. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 20:30, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

So i hurd

Rapta doesn't like theorycrafting O.o--Goldenstar 18:36, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Just the bad ones. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:36, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
You're on a tear today. :> --71.229 18:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Well, theorycrafting sux, unless you are voting on a build. :P Oh and even when you theorycraft dont use math, just read ressmonkeys vote :P should read stuff and post after moar. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 18:42, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Welcome!

Mgrinshpon sad
Hey Rapta/Archive 16, welcome to PvX!
Enjoy your (roughly) half of a week
before you realize this place sucks dick.

You can find more information about using the wiki here and
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mgrinshpon

Remember, I know you're new to this whole wiki buisness so I'm here for you. Just let me know if something's up. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 19:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

ups. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:48, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
The ladder link's broken. competative? –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 19:49, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Thats what my ups was about. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:51, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, your remark sure made that clear. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 19:51, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Sure. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 19:52, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
I should join a guild, no? — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 23:44, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
I herd you dont even play gw anymore o.o; --Super Igor *ninja!!* 07:51, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Wuts the point of staying on here then? ;o Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 08:09, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Being admin is damn cool I guess, but voting a build down because it requres alligience titles grinding should be a side effect of quitting gw o.o; --Super Igor *ninja!!* 08:12, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Well, I practically quit GW when I got my Wii and was inactive for atleast a month or two. I finally got bored with the Wii a little bit and started playing GW again, but I was active all of the time on PvX. You can theorycraft most of the builds together or just vote on them based on theorycrafting. --File:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*Wah Wah Wah!* 08:14, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Ya I agree that playing the game very often is not requred as long as you know/rememmber the mechanics, sometimes it might cause you to make mistakes or judge using outdated information. --Super Igor *ninja!!* 08:16, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Only if you don't play GWs anymore. Can't have active people in my guild. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş Grinshpon blinky cake 22:37, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Vote

Build:A/P Stunning Assassin Your vote is now obsolete. Selket Shadowdancer 16:37, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Wayyyy ahead of you. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 16:38, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Lol. Selket Shadowdancer 16:41, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Diablo III

DIABLO!!! --Lann-sf2 Lann 13:23, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

^. fuckfuckfuck i want it now --Ibreaktoilets SignatureTab Moo 13:44, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
NOW! --Lann-sf2 Lann 22:20, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
I have read that it is not due to be released until around June 1, 2009. :( --Lann-sf2 Lann 01:28, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Can You Delete This Please

Build:R/Rt Brutal Barrage --Lann-sf2 Lann 17:59, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Add {{delete|Author Request}} if you so desire. --GoD Wario Sig*Wah Wah Wah!* 18:00, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
NO LANN DONT!!--Crossfire&#039;s Signature 18:01, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
Done. Next time, post this stuff on the AN, and/or add the delete tag. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:27, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

[1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was quite sure that category tags should be kept upon archiving builds? I think I even asked you about it and you said that they should be kept. And if not then lots of tags need to be removed. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:34, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

That's never been the case. It's commented out. Kept, but not shown on the screen. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 10:37, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
However adding the "stuff" (English fail) to make the tag not show on the screen will also make it not show up in the category. Additionally it's without making it invisible with the "stuff" not showing up on the screen anyway. Am I misunderstanding you here, or? Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:48, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
It's like... commenting out code. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 10:54, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
...Yes but as I see it you either keep category tags on archived builds or you don't; then whatever method for don't keeping I don't care about. But just look through this and you'll see that the most builds are archived ones, thus I made the assumption that you should keep the category tag. But since you commented it out it won't show up in the category; and thus your action qualifies as "removing" it. Either you remove or keep the category tag; depending on what should be done your edit on the build linked above was wrong or all builds that have been archived and still got their category tag needs it removed, which one is it? Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 10:59, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
Tl;dr. You comment out the category tag. It's been done that way ever since GWiki. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 11:03, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
Tl;dr? (forgot ;o) Then someone needs to go through all categories and comment out the category tags ;o Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 11:23, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
Most of them have commented out category tags. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 11:25, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

Rapta's right. Archived builds should not show up in any categories except for the "archived" ones. These tags should be either commented out or removed. Commenting out is somewhat better because it makes it easier to see what category the build belonged to before archiving. If you find builds which are archived and still have the campaign category tags, please comment them out. – HHHIPPO ‹sysop› 16:13, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

i herd u dont miss igor

why'd u delete it?--Holy Wrath TNPŢħөŅσοb Pớlїčз 16:04, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

I moved it to your namespace. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 18:51, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
but why cant it be a template..?--Holy Wrath TNPŢħөŅσοb Pớlїčз 19:38, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
Because the mainspace isn't for non-gw/wiki related templates. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 20:03, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
orly? i got plenty of template userboxes on my page tht arnt gw related at all--Holy Wrath TNPŢħөŅσοb Pớlїčз 23:30, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
Those shouldn't be in the mainspace either. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 00:05, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

[2]

[3] I added it since there seemed to be an agreement that a merge would be better since changing the skill had no major impact on the build in general. Would you care to explain? Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 13:36, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

There needs to be an agreement in order for a merge to take place. There's random QQing on the talk page about the build either being different, or preferring deletion over a "merge". — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 21:33, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

diablo

The wall of zombies looks awesome. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 22:03, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

Epic boss battles. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 00:03, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
That too, and killing enemies with the environment is delicious. (As a side note, I loved Dark Messiah for that very reason.) –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 00:05, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

still want that

Draconic? I got an extra one laying around that I'll never use BigPEWTyme 06:25, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, I'll message you ingame if I see you on then. =) — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 10:23, 6 July 2008 (EDT)
I'm on now if you're not busy BigPEWTyme 20:58, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

holy crap

Before I even managed to add a delete tag (read: within 30 seconds) after moving a page, you deleted the original page. Props for speed. –Ichigo724Ichigo-signature 21:34, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

btw thx

For helping me get most of my builds betted :P--"Canderouss"Youngcanderous "the kotor guy" 20:06, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Build:Team - HA Pressureway

Champion's vote assumes BB sins are bad in HA, which is wrong unless you're a horrible player.--GoldenGoldenstarStar 16:08, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

AN is the place to go. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 16:13, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Votes

Why do you almost always post a bad rating like 1.0 or 2.0 and remove few that didn't vote like you? Kinda low. — Abedeus User Abedeus Sig 08:15, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

May have something to do with that the builds deserve that rating...? Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube 09:48, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
Check Pew Pew ranger. Archived version for pve AND pvp was in Great, yet now pve-only version better than before nerfs (more self-defense and non-stop 33% ias) got weak vote from Rapta. And he removed 2 votes where people said they like the build. — Abedeus User Abedeus Sig 10:34, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
Pretty sure that the reasons are on the ratings page. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 12:02, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
Check again. Reasons for both removed is "...". — Abedeus User Abedeus Sig 13:01, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
Probably because the vote was stupid. — Rapta Rapta Icon1 (talk|contribs) 16:30, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
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