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Build:E/D_Ether_Earth_Tank

Why don't you learn to test things before you go trashing builds you know nothing about? --Lexxor 08:25, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

#Talkpage
  1. <insert Bob Fregman quote here> Thomas. 08:28, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
Testing if for the weak. Only idiots test builds. --GoD LWGuildofDealsGoD RW 17:39, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
Agreed with Guild.Sebv2727 17:50, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
Guild of Deals fails, dont agree with him, testing>guessing. Ppl r too lazy (<--GoD)--Relyk Purifying Veil SigRELYK ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 19:33, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

Comments

Don't remove them. Thanks. ~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   17:54, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

About your build rating

You said "Monk gets raped, and you wont kill the opponent monk fast enough. No support, no melee shutdown, and no crippling/snare for the otehr monk. Though an innovative build." and I have to disagree on that, because you didn't read all of the variants, and I seriously doubt any monk can survive two critical scythes without enchants and no blocking.Sareth 11:47, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

Thank you for removing your vote.Sareth 18:45, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Build:Team - HA Wellway

Has been revamped, please reconsider your vote. I is *Jebus*IAmJebussig3Enter my contest! 19:09, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

Dont

put votes on trial builds such as Build:Team - Physical Heroes. plz remove it as per this. ☆Imbagon♥McSteve☆(LVPoW) Cuz Steve said so... ツ 00:21, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

Multiple Votes

[2] Was that on purpose or an accident? I'm confused as to how that happened. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 20:39, 6 January 2010

Whoops happends on accident. Don't know, think its my computer who didn't showed me my vote alrdy has been submitted.
It's a Wikia server error. I'd explain more, but it's a secret. ··· Danny So Cute 19:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

your rating

could you explain your rating here a little more? I don't see how armor level for a caster, who isn't running up to your melee players to use dwayna's touch, is significant. Although the party support is limited to Curses and Earth magic any necromancer doing the same job would also be somewhat limited after you work out a way of countering the health sacrifice. If you forget the orders for a minute, this can also essentially spam curse skills - great synergy with the bunch of physicals you should be running. - AthrunFeya - 21:00, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, thought I'd just run through a number of your points. A few of these may be the reason why the vote was removed.
Agreed, it got orders at 14 att, but not as much party support as necs can have.
Nec orders leave open for Splinter/Soh which is really the key to blow your environment away.. 
You have two other heroes to take these on. No point gimping out an orders bar to yield a low-damage splinter weapon.
"kill whole PvE button skills" > the party support this is able to take.
I thought Barbs/MoP, especially when combined with many physicals (or minions) is instant death to anything you could encounter in PvE. i'm curious as to what you think these other skills are (other than the two mentioned above, which don't really become effective until you're running a Rt/Mo anyway).
N/E orders which results in the following: Leaves open elite in exchange for a decent selfheal. 
Elite> Self heal
Possible elites are BiP (helps your monk who can heal you in return), Well of Power (partywide heal + e regen)
At first glance you may think having good support > a self heal. In regular builds it isn't necessary to have a self heal because you only pressure your monks as much as the other team members in your party. However, when you're constantly saccing health (moreover, using things like BiP) without any form of self heal you begin to pressure healers - ultimately this means you have to invest another one of your team members than usual in healing. So where you thought you had extra utility because you gained an empty secondary profession on a necromancer, you've actually lost a character trying to maintain your party's health.
Compared to D/N, this has 34-49 less AL. You might say this doesn't matter cause it is a caster. 
I disagree with that, because when running a hero party (with at least 4 heroes) 
you won't always be able to keep your back/midline free of their frontline. 
I think I've explained enough here why this < N/any and this < D/N orders.
Your party will ultimately have some sort of caster in it, whether it be a splinterbot or a necro or monk healer. These builds aren't rated down for their lack of armor level, so it stands to reason this one shouldn't be either. Only if it was for the purpose of being on the frontline would armor be a strong consideration but this is a caster (I'll also point out here that this is where the derv build differs, it needs higher armor because it runs up to your melee chars to use dwaynas touch). If you really have problems with foes leaking into your support heroes/hench, that's what "save yourselves!" is for. The AL difference is more in the region of 25-30.
Also not innovative cause alot of order builds r posted here
This is incorrect. We only have one other PvE orders build - the D/N. - AthrunFeya - 23:47, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
I tip my hat to thee, o great Lau. -- Big McStrongfist 23:49, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
not to mention, his usage of "Innovation" is completely incorrect. Technically, the build isn't innovative because isn't meta, but that hardly matters anyway. ··· Danny So Cute 00:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)



First of all, Thanks for bringing up some real arguments, instead of just pointing to some unreal arguments (Bigtymerxg4). Second of all I would like to react on your arguments. I'll start off with the weak arguments:

Also not innovative cause alot of order builds r posted here

This is incorrect. We only have one other PvE orders build - the D/N. -
We got 1 more orders build: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Well_of_Support. This should be made more general in my opinion, but I won't explain that further.
Compared to D/N, this has 34-49 less AL. You might say this doesn't matter cause it is a caster. 
I disagree with that, because when running a hero party (with at least 4 heroes)
you won't always be able to keep your back/midline free of their frontline. 
I think I've explained enough here why this < N/any and this < D/N orders.
Your party will ultimately have some sort of caster in it, whether it be a splinterbot or a necro or monk healer. These builds aren't rated down for their lack of armor level, so it stands to reason this one shouldn't be either. Only if it was for the purpose of being on the frontline would armor be a strong consideration but this is a caster (I'll also point out here that this is where the derv build differs, it needs higher armor because it runs up to your melee chars to use dwaynas touch). If you really have problems with foes leaking into your support heroes/hench, that's what "save yourselves!" is for. The AL difference is more in the region of 25-30.
AL difference is from vow of piety + windwalkers insigna + 10 base AL difference. Makes 34-49 diff. Then people SHOULD actually keep in mind that casters have lower AL then usuall melee. They SHOULD be rated lower if there would be the same build with higher AL. Then again mention my point of a hero party (which this is 1 of): "you won't always be able to keep your back/midline free of their frontline."
"kill whole PvE button skills" > the party support this is able to take.
I thought Barbs/MoP, especially when combined with many physicals (or minions) is instant death to anything you could encounter in PvE. i'm curious as to what you think these other skills are (other than the two mentioned above, which don't really become effective until you're running a Rt/Mo anyway).
Barbs/MoP are also skills that makes PvE looks sad. However an ele can only use MoP every 20 seconds. That should be no problem, if it is placed good (which is almost never (unless good balling + Micro). An N/A could take Assassings promise + MoP to spam it (I am just pointing out N/A > E/N here, not explaining why you should run N/A curser/orders.

N/E orders which results in the following: Leaves open elite in exchange for a decent selfheal.

Elite> Self heal
Possible elites are BiP (helps your monk who can heal you in return), Well of Power (partywide heal + e regen)
At first glance you may think having good support > a self heal. In regular builds it isn't necessary to have a self heal because you only pressure your monks as much as the other team members in your party. However, when you're constantly saccing health (moreover, using things like BiP) without any form of self heal you begin to pressure healers - ultimately this means you have to invest another one of your team members than usual in healing. So where you thought you had extra utility because you gained an empty secondary profession on a necromancer, you've actually lost a character trying to maintain your party's health.
At self heal, you got a good point, I admit. Great selfheal to counter the sacrifice may be better then I mentioned first. I still think Well of Power makes up for it, giving party wide E+H regen (2/6).Sebv2727 15:13, February 11, 2010 (UTC)


Ah, the Well of Support is a really, really old build, so I agree needs updating majorly (and renaming, lol). I'll also point out that the E/N hero can take Blessed Insignia (energy or loads of health isn't needed, so why not), giving you 70al if armor is something that bothers you (but it shouldn't be). Part of playing a physical character should be blocking foes from your squishies (and using SY or similar when you fail). Armor level is not significant for something which does not typically soak the damage up . Not only does ER offer an instant self-heal, but offers insanely good energy management (better than that of cultists fervor and arcane zeal).

Put it this way, I don't see how you can suggest something like this is better:

Assassin&#039;s Promise Mark of Pain Barbs Order of Pain Dark Fury Signet of Lost Souls Optional Optional

it has nothing in the way of self heal, has unreliable energy, unreliable recharge (heroes with MoP, lol) a terrible 4-way attribute split and, the point you made yourself, only 60al (oh no!)! - AthrunFeya - 15:34, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Micro manage AP, no problem at all. Energy is fine, AP + SR will give you about 15-20 energy per kill (not to mention SolS, which should also be on the bar). No self heal is true, but I alrdy said that was a good point of you(read back). Then you don't react on my other answers, you mean I'm correct with those?Sebv2727 15:40, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
What didn't I cover exactly? Also energy is unreliable because AP on heroes is unreliable, I can't describe how much of a horrible idea AP on a hero is - just no. What about the armor level and the horrible attribute split (which actually make it weaker than the E/N)? - AthrunFeya - 15:48, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Vote Re-removed

I realized that the reasoning in the vote removal itself was insubstantial for you, so I went ahead and re-removed the vote with new reasoning. If you need further proof as to why your vote is inaccurate, I suggest looking over one of the many GWGuru threads on the topic. Thanks.

Edit: Heroes don't use AP well, even when micro'd. They will try to cast it as a target dies, but their AI with it just doesn't justify using it, even if you micro it. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 15:43, 11 February 2010

Disagree with that. Good micro management will cause AP's effect to trigger. Then, you will only get proof from ingame experience, not what some guys on Guru say about it. I've seen my Nec heroes work perfectly with it, but I don't use them anymore. The AI might be updated at this point, but I'm not sure for that.Sebv2727 15:48, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Last, I agree math was inaccurate (should be 24-39 instead of 34-49), but that isnt by far enough reason to remove a vote. The reasoning of removing my vote is still pretty insubstantial, I must say.Sebv2727 15:49, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
(EC)The AI hasn't been updated with AP for around a year or so. And I'm not solely basing this on the experience of Guru'ers. I'm basing this on my experience, the experience of GWW'ers, AND the experience of Guru'ers. I used to go and test the AI to try and figure out what they use well (still do sometimes).
And it's been proven countless times that Necro heroes just can't use orders well unless there are almost unlimited corpses in an area or your have a AotL MM or something to fund the bar. It just doesn't work. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 15:51, 11 February 2010
Well, I think we can agree to disagree then. I've found my necs using orders quite good, and so there is no reason for furhter arguingSebv2727 16:10, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
This issues doesn't allow us the right to "agree to disagree" since the issue is whether or not your vote's reasoning is valid. However, I'm willing to drop it if you can accept that the vote will remain removed. Karate KJ for sig Jesus 16:15, 11 February 2010
Hmm in some way it does grant us that right: At the discussion Nec orders > other orders. Finally I've heard some arguments in removing my vote, which are valid enough to remove it. So, yea I can live with that.Sebv2727 16:20, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
Ok then, have a wonderful day :D Karate KJ for sig Jesus 16:26, 11 February 2010
Lol, same 2uSebv2727 16:30, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

hey

I really shouldn't have to remind you but use the "show preview" button at the bottom of the editing window more, in order to not fill up Special:RecentChanges - AthrunFeya Lau bfly - 15:23, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ok I will. This was actually the first time I made a build, so I think I should be reminded of thatSebv2727 15:27, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

vote

plz update your vote here as the recent update invalidates your reasoning --Smity the Smith 23:38, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

:done
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